More #Bluesky #drama for you'nSomeone was suspended'nDeath threats?
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@luca @benroyce @irelephant @_elena Even if it's a config issue caused by the system being hideously complex we would still seem to end up at the conclusion that you need to be a million or billion dollar company with a team of full-time engineers to actually try to build a full alternative implementation of this "decentralized" system. Its governance can at best be an oligarchy. By design.
If they wanted it to actually be decentralized they'd be finding ways to help people fix these issues.
@admin@mastodon.slightlycyberpunk.com @luca@sironi.tk @_elena@mastodon.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
There is a lot of different implementations, like https://reddwarf.whey.party/ which runs entirely in browser (no appview or relay needed), https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite, which is so lightweight I was able to run it on my phone, https://app.wafrn.net, which has activitypub and atproto support and blacksky, which has written the pds and relay software themselves.
I wouldn't say the system is hideously complex, moderation services are a pretty simple feature used by loads of people who don't know what a decentralisation is themselves. -
@admin@mastodon.slightlycyberpunk.com @luca@sironi.tk @_elena@mastodon.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
There is a lot of different implementations, like https://reddwarf.whey.party/ which runs entirely in browser (no appview or relay needed), https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite, which is so lightweight I was able to run it on my phone, https://app.wafrn.net, which has activitypub and atproto support and blacksky, which has written the pds and relay software themselves.
I wouldn't say the system is hideously complex, moderation services are a pretty simple feature used by loads of people who don't know what a decentralisation is themselves.@irelephant @luca @_elena @benroyce
Not sure what reddwarf is, all I get is an error page (NetworkError when attempting to fetch resource) and I can't find any page explaining what it's supposed to be or what I'm supposed to be seeing.AppViewLite seems to only be implementing one single component, the appview.
Warfrn is also only a partial implementation. Says right in their docs that you'll need other components to use it with bluesky. No mention of where to get those though. I'd guess they expect you to rely on the centralized Bluesky ones.
And Blacksky is the one we were already discussing that allegedly doesn't understand how to actually implement the things they're trying to implement. Or maybe they do and the network just isn't actually decentralized. Those seem to be the two options.
Would any of these platforms survive if Bluesky decided to set up a firewall blocking them from the Bluesky infrastructure? Seems like the answer is no. That is not a decentralized system, that's an API.
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@irelephant @luca @_elena @benroyce
Not sure what reddwarf is, all I get is an error page (NetworkError when attempting to fetch resource) and I can't find any page explaining what it's supposed to be or what I'm supposed to be seeing.AppViewLite seems to only be implementing one single component, the appview.
Warfrn is also only a partial implementation. Says right in their docs that you'll need other components to use it with bluesky. No mention of where to get those though. I'd guess they expect you to rely on the centralized Bluesky ones.
And Blacksky is the one we were already discussing that allegedly doesn't understand how to actually implement the things they're trying to implement. Or maybe they do and the network just isn't actually decentralized. Those seem to be the two options.
Would any of these platforms survive if Bluesky decided to set up a firewall blocking them from the Bluesky infrastructure? Seems like the answer is no. That is not a decentralized system, that's an API.
@admin@mastodon.slightlycyberpunk.com @luca@sironi.tk @_elena@mastodon.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
That's weird. reddwarf lets you use bluesky directly through a pds, without an appview or relay.
Appviewlite can do everything bar being a PDS.
Wafrn implements the PDS and appview, they currently use blacksky's relay. -
@admin@mastodon.slightlycyberpunk.com @luca@sironi.tk @_elena@mastodon.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
That's weird. reddwarf lets you use bluesky directly through a pds, without an appview or relay.
Appviewlite can do everything bar being a PDS.
Wafrn implements the PDS and appview, they currently use blacksky's relay.@irelephant @luca @_elena @benroyce so they're all partial implementations, they all either need Bluesky or Blacksky and Blacksky can't seem to enforce their own decisions if Bluesky disagrees with them. So ultimately everything is still controlled by Bluesky. It is not decentralized; Bluesky is the singular center of all of it.
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@irelephant @luca @_elena @benroyce so they're all partial implementations, they all either need Bluesky or Blacksky and Blacksky can't seem to enforce their own decisions if Bluesky disagrees with them. So ultimately everything is still controlled by Bluesky. It is not decentralized; Bluesky is the singular center of all of it.
No, there's loads of alternate PDSes. (1200 right now).
My PDS is altq.net, but there's also bsky.global and bsky.aenead.net and the tangled pds.
Wafrn comes with it's own pds as well.
I can use my altq pds, and https://reddwarf.whey.party/ and use bluesky without Bluesky PBC being able to control anything.
It's important to note that Link (the guy who got banned) still has his account accessible on the blacksky pds, it's just hidden on the two clients.
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No, there's loads of alternate PDSes. (1200 right now).
My PDS is altq.net, but there's also bsky.global and bsky.aenead.net and the tangled pds.
Wafrn comes with it's own pds as well.
I can use my altq pds, and https://reddwarf.whey.party/ and use bluesky without Bluesky PBC being able to control anything.
It's important to note that Link (the guy who got banned) still has his account accessible on the blacksky pds, it's just hidden on the two clients.
@irelephant@app.wafrn.net @admin @_elena @irelephant@calckey.world
I guess the most concerns, from people wanting to understand, are related to the AT pieces with fewer alternatives, like relays and appview.
Is this "link" user visible to users hosted on the main Bluesky, if they use a 3rd part client like deer.social ?
Is it visible to people on Blacksky or Wafrn ? -
@irelephant@app.wafrn.net @admin @_elena @irelephant@calckey.world
I guess the most concerns, from people wanting to understand, are related to the AT pieces with fewer alternatives, like relays and appview.
Is this "link" user visible to users hosted on the main Bluesky, if they use a 3rd part client like deer.social ?
Is it visible to people on Blacksky or Wafrn ?I'm not too sure about the third party client bit, people could get around country specific ones, but I don't know if they can get around the main one. Right now, deer.social has the person blocked.
They're on wafrn: https://app.wafrn.net/blog/@spacelawshitpost.me
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I'm not too sure about the third party client bit, people could get around country specific ones, but I don't know if they can get around the main one. Right now, deer.social has the person blocked.
They're on wafrn: https://app.wafrn.net/blog/@spacelawshitpost.me
@irelephant@app.wafrn.net @admin @_elena @irelephant@calckey.world
oh, also external account, nice
https://app.wafrn.net/blog/@luca.sironi.tk
(i just couldn't get used to wafrn gui)
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@liaizon @pfefferle what did you think?
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@irelephant@app.wafrn.net @admin @_elena @irelephant@calckey.world
oh, also external account, nice
https://app.wafrn.net/blog/@luca.sironi.tk
(i just couldn't get used to wafrn gui)
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I'm not too sure about the third party client bit, people could get around country specific ones, but I don't know if they can get around the main one. Right now, deer.social has the person blocked.
They're on wafrn: https://app.wafrn.net/blog/@spacelawshitpost.me
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@irelephant@app.wafrn.net @admin @_elena @irelephant@calckey.world
I guess the most concerns, from people wanting to understand, are related to the AT pieces with fewer alternatives, like relays and appview.
Is this "link" user visible to users hosted on the main Bluesky, if they use a 3rd part client like deer.social ?
Is it visible to people on Blacksky or Wafrn ?
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@mastodonmigration @mattsheffield Note the second piece is https://dustycloud.org/blog/re-re-bluesky-decentralization/
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Good summery of events.
None of this complexity should be surprising, and has been foretold by ActivityPub developer @cwebber. Christine published a two-part series of very technical analysis of ATProtocol. The second piece (Dec 2024 https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/) addresses what inherently makes real decentralization prohibitive. In particular, while ActivityPub scales linearly, ATProtocol has quadratic scaling. The result is an explosion of traffic as nodes are added to the system.
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No, there's loads of alternate PDSes. (1200 right now).
My PDS is altq.net, but there's also bsky.global and bsky.aenead.net and the tangled pds.
Wafrn comes with it's own pds as well.
I can use my altq pds, and https://reddwarf.whey.party/ and use bluesky without Bluesky PBC being able to control anything.
It's important to note that Link (the guy who got banned) still has his account accessible on the blacksky pds, it's just hidden on the two clients.
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Just finished listening to @pfefferle interview @evan about the long and arduous history of the #fediverse from OpenMicroblogging and OStatus through to the present day
https://socialwebfoundation.org/2025/10/07/evan-prodromou-on-openchannels-fm #podcasts
