We definitely need the 1.0 release of Lemmy now more than ever...
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im never going back to ad supported algorithmic brainwashing. decentralized open source, or nothing for me
Me neither. But god damn if I just want a thriving community where I can get lost in threads on subtopics of topics that I’ve never heard of in my life.
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This may be unpopular to say here, but the fediverse needs to be less toxic for the average user. I'm probably going to be downvoted to hell for this, but here goes: the whole tesseract situation was a clusterfuck and the dev is a jackass, but in one regard he is right - there is a toxicity problem. I mean, let's look at it:
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Lemmy's main dev is what many would refer to as a tankie. He regularly spreads misinformation, supporting fascist governments, so long as they claim to be socialist or communist - and don't belong to the west. Anything the West does is, by definition, evil.
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Lemmy's flagship instance is lemmy.ml. An instance where many communities have a "be nice" rule, but say anything against the (similarly aligned) group think and you'll be ridiculed, insulted, and banned. Meanwhile, some pretty insane calls for violence stay up. And lemmy.ml isn't even the worst in that corner of the fediverse.
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There are many other instances that aren't great, either. Wander into an instance and accidentally say something absolutely factual that someone doesn't like - ban, because some thin skinned mod sees it as derogatory. Remember the whole dragonfucker saga? Yeah, that's very off-putting to your average user.
Look, I'm no stranger to Reddit group think, I've had it turn on me, and trust me, it's no fun. Hell, I've had it on Facebook back when that was still a thing (yeah, I'm dating myself here). But it was nothing on what I've seen on here. I've been able to avoid it here (or, sometimes I've purposefully wandered into it in an attempt to disrupt an echo chamber, but then I knew exactly what I was getting into and expected as much), but what I saw happening to others - holy shit. I mean, to be fair, the instance I'm on is an instance that very rarely defederates, which I like because I like seeing different viewpoints including ones with which I vehemently disagree with (although the viewpoints are very unbalanced, that does have to be said). But it's a hell of a lot more fun to not have to keep your guard up all the time.
So, you might argue, be careful which instance you chose. OK, so I chose an instance like Lemmy.world, which as far as Lemmy goes, is definitely more on the normal side of things. But then, who are they federated with? The next rabbit hole. And how do you know which ones have less crazies? Experience. And as a saying goes, experience is what you needed just before you got it. Then many people suggest putting together blocklist and what not. Another rabbit hole. Put briefly: it involves work, a lot of it. People aren't on Reddit to work (for the most part), they're there to have fun. If you need to put in so much work, at some point it's not fun anymore. And that's what's off-putting for the typical user.
What can be done to make it more palatable for normal users? I honestly don't know. I see it as a chicken and egg problem. We need more "normal" people to drown out the crazies, but then the "normal" people won't come because of the crazies. Maybe Piefed is better in that regard - although I've heard there were/are?tesseract-style problems there, as well - I just haven't had the nerve to go down yet another rabbit hole to figure out what's actually going on. Which brings us back to square one - that's already gone way, way too far for the average user. And I can't exactly blame them. I'm "only" here because I care about open source and decentralisation. And I insist on staying here on matter of principle. But I can't in good faith recommend it to anyone I know IRL.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Maybe someone has some better ideas.
There's a difference between advocating for a "set the world on fire" attitude, and a "we must take up arms to defend our continued existence" attitude. I think we are well past the point where we should be pulling our punches on fascist ideology. Putting flowers in the gun barrels of the oppressors just means there'll be pollen on the bullets. I'd absolutely LOVE for there to be a peaceful solution*, but let's be real: we've seen this horror movie before. We know what's around that dark corner. I'd much rather go on the offensive and nip this shit in the bud.
(*and I hope there's still time to have one, let me be clear)
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Honestly I've given up on encouraging people to do things to better themselves. We've had open source technology for a very long time. The Fediverse has been pretty mature for a good while now. Xitter and Reddit have been through many rounds of appalling enshittification, not to mention Meta.
RSS is as old as the internet but people overwhelmingly choose Apple News and other dumb shit.
Email is as old as the internet but people overwhelmingly choose corporate platforms like Gmail.
Podcasts are ancient but people overwhelmingly choose to use platforms like Spotify, and worse, YouTube.
People just overwhelmingly make bad decisions, and have been for decades so, yeah, I'm exhausted.
I used to ask people to switch and they would ask "why?" and I would be so appalled that they would even ask the question because, how could you not know any of the litany of reasons to get off this fucking platform?
Sometimes they ask and I explain and then the only thing that changes is that they think I'm a weirdo.
people go where the content is. That's just the nature of the beast. Like I'm pissed at the reddit mods for kicking me off of reddit more because that's were 90% of the minecraft community lives, (most of the reason I used reddit in the first place) and less because they got the ass pains for me calling them out on their corporate bootlicking behavior.
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Honestly I've given up on encouraging people to do things to better themselves. We've had open source technology for a very long time. The Fediverse has been pretty mature for a good while now. Xitter and Reddit have been through many rounds of appalling enshittification, not to mention Meta.
RSS is as old as the internet but people overwhelmingly choose Apple News and other dumb shit.
Email is as old as the internet but people overwhelmingly choose corporate platforms like Gmail.
Podcasts are ancient but people overwhelmingly choose to use platforms like Spotify, and worse, YouTube.
People just overwhelmingly make bad decisions, and have been for decades so, yeah, I'm exhausted.
I used to ask people to switch and they would ask "why?" and I would be so appalled that they would even ask the question because, how could you not know any of the litany of reasons to get off this fucking platform?
Sometimes they ask and I explain and then the only thing that changes is that they think I'm a weirdo.
Something has been lost over the past 15-20 years. It's like nobody has the mindset anymore of the world wide web era. Where's the curiosity. Where's the discovery. Where's the malleability to find something new to you and try it. Inertia has locked them into subservience.
The internet flipped upside down. It was new frontier for you to explore. Now you lay there as it spoon feeds you.
People have been quantified into units. So they can be packaged and sold as datasets. They're boxed into what the ad industry categorizes them as. This person is an Apple News user, reddit user, and Youtube watcher. That user is on Twitter and Facebook. Much more fine grained than just what platforms they use of course. They told the system what they like and the system built a reinforced box around them. And then charge them for an air tube for good measure.
We are far gone from the days where a user would be so excited to post a wall of text about using a thing that another user doesn't know about. These days the reaction is more likely to be,"Who are? Who sent you?!? What's your real motive???" Skepticism. Distrust. Paranoia.
Often these days, outright indifference. People know these platforms fuck with their minds. With public conscious. They mould the world we live in. People don't care. The world chose to be Cypher. They wanted to be plugged into the Matrix.
Though that's not really a good analogy because outside the system isn't a desolate landscape. The outside world is still normal.
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Would you search up "reddit like alternatives" if you hadn't been banned? And if someone came on Reddit a few days before you got banned and said to you "hey, this is the Fediverse, come join us", would you join, or would you say "I have no reason to leave Reddit or to use any other Reddit-like platform"?
I also don't it's a "disenchantment" problem. I believe it's more of a "refusing to change because it takes effort" problem
honestly, in the months leading up to it I may just have. The AI posting ragebait problem was/is getting very untenable over there and it would have been a nice safety valve to come here and gripe about the world without having to dance around corporate boilerplate ass covering "rules" governing what you can and and can't say. I suppose you're not without a point though. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.
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Something has been lost over the past 15-20 years. It's like nobody has the mindset anymore of the world wide web era. Where's the curiosity. Where's the discovery. Where's the malleability to find something new to you and try it. Inertia has locked them into subservience.
The internet flipped upside down. It was new frontier for you to explore. Now you lay there as it spoon feeds you.
People have been quantified into units. So they can be packaged and sold as datasets. They're boxed into what the ad industry categorizes them as. This person is an Apple News user, reddit user, and Youtube watcher. That user is on Twitter and Facebook. Much more fine grained than just what platforms they use of course. They told the system what they like and the system built a reinforced box around them. And then charge them for an air tube for good measure.
We are far gone from the days where a user would be so excited to post a wall of text about using a thing that another user doesn't know about. These days the reaction is more likely to be,"Who are? Who sent you?!? What's your real motive???" Skepticism. Distrust. Paranoia.
Often these days, outright indifference. People know these platforms fuck with their minds. With public conscious. They mould the world we live in. People don't care. The world chose to be Cypher. They wanted to be plugged into the Matrix.
Though that's not really a good analogy because outside the system isn't a desolate landscape. The outside world is still normal.
People know these platforms fuck with their minds...People don't care.
Exactly. The vast majority know how terrible they are, but continue to subject themselves to it anyway. Why? Lack of self-respect? Unwillingness to explore and learn new things? I don't get it.
The Fediverse has shown me that what these companies have isn't anything special, aside from the network. People don't go there for the software, they go there for the people. But they can't move the people to new/other software.
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I actually just got the "You used old.reddit.com you need to log in to view" and decided to see if any more people had adopted Lemmy. It's more active than it was last time I was here, but probably still not active enough to move most casuals.
I'll probably come back for the next couple days and re-build my communities, and see if it can keep my attention, but I'm not holding my breathe.
It's unfortunate that Mastodon has also struggled, I'm glad Bluesky exists as an alternative but it would be nice to see federation more widely adopted by the masses. Maybe in time, with constant growth.
I saw the r/FauxMoi post today about the subreddit being marked sensitive information and de-prioritized by the algorithm and it's clear enshittification is in full swing, so it's just a matter of time before Reddit is mostly abandoned.
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Just holding up images of memes outside
I’d toss a quarter in yer bucket for that.
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No, just no. Just stay off reddit lmao, not trying to be harsh or whatever but it's a very simple answer.
there will definitely be some users over there that discover the fediverse and join us, there will also be some that won't. And we don't want them all to come, ghislane maxwell can stay on reddit forever from her country club prison computer, for example.
So just keep doing whatever it is you're doing to contribute to the fediverse, either by being a powermod or just a lurker, and as the fediverse grows and adapts it will attract those it should attract.
Going back and contributing to a website owned by literal trump funders just seems like a complete nonstarter to me.
Idk, tell your IRL friends, discord friends whoever, sure, i just don't think posting on reddit is the answer to doing anything positive for the fediverse.
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This may be unpopular to say here, but the fediverse needs to be less toxic for the average user. I'm probably going to be downvoted to hell for this, but here goes: the whole tesseract situation was a clusterfuck and the dev is a jackass, but in one regard he is right - there is a toxicity problem. I mean, let's look at it:
-
Lemmy's main dev is what many would refer to as a tankie. He regularly spreads misinformation, supporting fascist governments, so long as they claim to be socialist or communist - and don't belong to the west. Anything the West does is, by definition, evil.
-
Lemmy's flagship instance is lemmy.ml. An instance where many communities have a "be nice" rule, but say anything against the (similarly aligned) group think and you'll be ridiculed, insulted, and banned. Meanwhile, some pretty insane calls for violence stay up. And lemmy.ml isn't even the worst in that corner of the fediverse.
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There are many other instances that aren't great, either. Wander into an instance and accidentally say something absolutely factual that someone doesn't like - ban, because some thin skinned mod sees it as derogatory. Remember the whole dragonfucker saga? Yeah, that's very off-putting to your average user.
Look, I'm no stranger to Reddit group think, I've had it turn on me, and trust me, it's no fun. Hell, I've had it on Facebook back when that was still a thing (yeah, I'm dating myself here). But it was nothing on what I've seen on here. I've been able to avoid it here (or, sometimes I've purposefully wandered into it in an attempt to disrupt an echo chamber, but then I knew exactly what I was getting into and expected as much), but what I saw happening to others - holy shit. I mean, to be fair, the instance I'm on is an instance that very rarely defederates, which I like because I like seeing different viewpoints including ones with which I vehemently disagree with (although the viewpoints are very unbalanced, that does have to be said). But it's a hell of a lot more fun to not have to keep your guard up all the time.
So, you might argue, be careful which instance you chose. OK, so I chose an instance like Lemmy.world, which as far as Lemmy goes, is definitely more on the normal side of things. But then, who are they federated with? The next rabbit hole. And how do you know which ones have less crazies? Experience. And as a saying goes, experience is what you needed just before you got it. Then many people suggest putting together blocklist and what not. Another rabbit hole. Put briefly: it involves work, a lot of it. People aren't on Reddit to work (for the most part), they're there to have fun. If you need to put in so much work, at some point it's not fun anymore. And that's what's off-putting for the typical user.
What can be done to make it more palatable for normal users? I honestly don't know. I see it as a chicken and egg problem. We need more "normal" people to drown out the crazies, but then the "normal" people won't come because of the crazies. Maybe Piefed is better in that regard - although I've heard there were/are?tesseract-style problems there, as well - I just haven't had the nerve to go down yet another rabbit hole to figure out what's actually going on. Which brings us back to square one - that's already gone way, way too far for the average user. And I can't exactly blame them. I'm "only" here because I care about open source and decentralisation. And I insist on staying here on matter of principle. But I can't in good faith recommend it to anyone I know IRL.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Maybe someone has some better ideas.
People need to change their ideas about what the fedi/threadiverse is in relation to social media. It is an international forum of everything.
The lemmy.ml situation is heavily offset by instances that either limit them or block them enitrely, as well as Piefed acting as a direct foil.
The *iverse cannot be unified entirely. Lemmy/Piefed/Mastodon and Pixelfed should be seen as a platform unto themselves where one may find likeminded people. It is not tailored to anyone's particular personal taste, and is open to anyone of literally any personal taste.
Lemmy does have a bit of a reputation for being the Fight Club of the fediverse... which is tbh, kinda fair but it kinda comes with the territory - literally. We're all here and we aren't all going to agree.
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Me neither. But god damn if I just want a thriving community where I can get lost in threads on subtopics of topics that I’ve never heard of in my life.
You gotta share links to people, that's how it spreads. They open it once wtf website is this? Oh that's fediverse, what? Dont worry about it. But you send them a couple more memes from here, and then they finally wanna comment on something and they make an account.
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Moved over here after I kept getting a popup I couldn't close pushing their app.
Reddit is finally dead to me. Good riddance.
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While I think there's some merit to the idea of talking about the fediverse on corporate legacy social media platforms, I think the best and most effective thing we can do is put in extra effort to engage with the fediverse itself, making posts and comments, building up new communities, and so on.
Reddit is no doubt getting worse and more closed off all the time. They treat their users like shit, or at least, like a resource to be harvested for profit. But at the same time, Reddit users will sit around complaining about the platform until the cows come up, but when it comes time to do anything about it (like, for example, go check out the fediverse...) they don't ever take any action. And this problem isn't unique to Reddit either, people just love to complain about X on X, complain about Facebook on Facebook, complain about Tiktok on Tiktok, etc. It's hard to tell how much of that is just performative internet shit vs genuine addiction to their particular algorithm of choice, but in my view it's a real problem...
In other words, the question is "where we should be spending our energy?"
Should we be spending it on Reddit, trying to convince a bunch of people (who frankly range from ambivalent to straight-up addicted) that Reddit sucks? Or should we spend it here on the fediverse building the communities from the ground up?
lemmy world is the top result when searching reddit alternatives. I agree the best thing you can do is to make this a good active community, anyone who is done with reddit will have no trouble finding their way here.
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No, just no. Just stay off reddit lmao, not trying to be harsh or whatever but it's a very simple answer.
there will definitely be some users over there that discover the fediverse and join us, there will also be some that won't. And we don't want them all to come, ghislane maxwell can stay on reddit forever from her country club prison computer, for example.
So just keep doing whatever it is you're doing to contribute to the fediverse, either by being a powermod or just a lurker, and as the fediverse grows and adapts it will attract those it should attract.
Going back and contributing to a website owned by literal trump funders just seems like a complete nonstarter to me.
Idk, tell your IRL friends, discord friends whoever, sure, i just don't think posting on reddit is the answer to doing anything positive for the fediverse.
No, just no. Just stay off reddit lmao, not trying to be harsh or whatever but it’s a very simple answer.
I second that!
It's a similar situation with Youtube. People keep complaining about the enshittification, yet they keep giving their audience to the Google platform. People could argue "Oh, nah, I use Invidious/yt-dlp/Grayjay/etc, I don't give Youtube my clicks" and this is a very naive take, because in the end of the day Indivious/yt-dlp/etc still rely on Youtube, and these peple are relying on content maintained by Youtube.
I myself have been boycotting Youtube for two years and counting, and I never looked back.
Yes, Youtube and Reddit have gazillions of content. Yes, we're often unable to find said content anywhere else. Yes, life can become more hard if we refrain from said content. But while we keep seeking their content (even, and especially, through circumvented manners), they will keep enshittifying because they know they have what the complaining people are ultimately seeking and they know people are seeking it so badly. Once we finally stop, maybe, just maybe, situation would reverse and Youtube and Reddit will be the ones seeking us so badly.
!fediverse@lemmy.world -
I'm getting this on the new UI too.
Maybe my browser finger print triggering something?
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Any pushing you can do is probably not going to help. Last time it was some API shit that actually generated a small amount of outrage enough to move a small amount of people. Apathy, habit and lock-in will tend to defeat that, so unless this gets people at least as pissed as whatever the API thing was, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Also, y'know, reddit... maybe it's just as well.
With honestly a large number of general web searches being reddit results on virtually any topic, I think the need for login will gradually frustrate many into seeking out the fediverse. It could take a long time, though. It also may not have a huge effect passively, because there is a high chance that the information they want isn't here.
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No, just no. Just stay off reddit lmao, not trying to be harsh or whatever but it's a very simple answer.
there will definitely be some users over there that discover the fediverse and join us, there will also be some that won't. And we don't want them all to come, ghislane maxwell can stay on reddit forever from her country club prison computer, for example.
So just keep doing whatever it is you're doing to contribute to the fediverse, either by being a powermod or just a lurker, and as the fediverse grows and adapts it will attract those it should attract.
Going back and contributing to a website owned by literal trump funders just seems like a complete nonstarter to me.
Idk, tell your IRL friends, discord friends whoever, sure, i just don't think posting on reddit is the answer to doing anything positive for the fediverse.
Oh she has an unbanned account over there I'm sure
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This may be unpopular to say here, but the fediverse needs to be less toxic for the average user. I'm probably going to be downvoted to hell for this, but here goes: the whole tesseract situation was a clusterfuck and the dev is a jackass, but in one regard he is right - there is a toxicity problem. I mean, let's look at it:
-
Lemmy's main dev is what many would refer to as a tankie. He regularly spreads misinformation, supporting fascist governments, so long as they claim to be socialist or communist - and don't belong to the west. Anything the West does is, by definition, evil.
-
Lemmy's flagship instance is lemmy.ml. An instance where many communities have a "be nice" rule, but say anything against the (similarly aligned) group think and you'll be ridiculed, insulted, and banned. Meanwhile, some pretty insane calls for violence stay up. And lemmy.ml isn't even the worst in that corner of the fediverse.
-
There are many other instances that aren't great, either. Wander into an instance and accidentally say something absolutely factual that someone doesn't like - ban, because some thin skinned mod sees it as derogatory. Remember the whole dragonfucker saga? Yeah, that's very off-putting to your average user.
Look, I'm no stranger to Reddit group think, I've had it turn on me, and trust me, it's no fun. Hell, I've had it on Facebook back when that was still a thing (yeah, I'm dating myself here). But it was nothing on what I've seen on here. I've been able to avoid it here (or, sometimes I've purposefully wandered into it in an attempt to disrupt an echo chamber, but then I knew exactly what I was getting into and expected as much), but what I saw happening to others - holy shit. I mean, to be fair, the instance I'm on is an instance that very rarely defederates, which I like because I like seeing different viewpoints including ones with which I vehemently disagree with (although the viewpoints are very unbalanced, that does have to be said). But it's a hell of a lot more fun to not have to keep your guard up all the time.
So, you might argue, be careful which instance you chose. OK, so I chose an instance like Lemmy.world, which as far as Lemmy goes, is definitely more on the normal side of things. But then, who are they federated with? The next rabbit hole. And how do you know which ones have less crazies? Experience. And as a saying goes, experience is what you needed just before you got it. Then many people suggest putting together blocklist and what not. Another rabbit hole. Put briefly: it involves work, a lot of it. People aren't on Reddit to work (for the most part), they're there to have fun. If you need to put in so much work, at some point it's not fun anymore. And that's what's off-putting for the typical user.
What can be done to make it more palatable for normal users? I honestly don't know. I see it as a chicken and egg problem. We need more "normal" people to drown out the crazies, but then the "normal" people won't come because of the crazies. Maybe Piefed is better in that regard - although I've heard there were/are?tesseract-style problems there, as well - I just haven't had the nerve to go down yet another rabbit hole to figure out what's actually going on. Which brings us back to square one - that's already gone way, way too far for the average user. And I can't exactly blame them. I'm "only" here because I care about open source and decentralisation. And I insist on staying here on matter of principle. But I can't in good faith recommend it to anyone I know IRL.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Maybe someone has some better ideas.
I agree with you.
I sought out lemmy first during the reddit API closure saga. I started using it less when the quality started to decline to to corporatization and enshittification. Requiring logins to view content is the last straw that kicked me off reddit.
The most important lesson this move to lemmy has taught me: if we're being served trash content, we can't blame "the algorithm". The basis of the fault lies with the users. Lemmy has been absolutely no short of ragebait, engagement bait, group think, and crazies.
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You should stand on a box and shout at people for the irl social media experience
TODAY'S TOP MEMES AT ELEVEN A FROG WONDERS ABOUT NIGHT SOUP. MORE IN FIVE MINUTES
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You gotta share links to people, that's how it spreads. They open it once wtf website is this? Oh that's fediverse, what? Dont worry about it. But you send them a couple more memes from here, and then they finally wanna comment on something and they make an account.
make a piefed feed. that way they avoid the politics and tech:
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