A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
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If you want the developer who was the target of the snarky comments on Reddit to stick around, consider reaching out to her and giving some context as I did. If you'd like there to be less of that in general I've already said what I think will help elsewhere in the thread so won't bother to repeat it here.
And if you'd like to make progress on the harassment here in general, please use your influence as Strategy Advisor to the Mastodon team to get them to announce ASAP that they're going to prioritize implementation of long-overdue anti-harassment technology like reply controls -- something @inquiline and others have highlighted repeatedly plug a big gap -- and local-only posts ... and then to prioritize it and get it out quickly. Because that's something that could have a big immediate impact, and when people see you and the team not prioritizing that they assume you don't see it as a priority.
On your point elsewhere about the pattern of people misunderstanding you and overreacting rather than asking clarifying questions ... I asked several questions, and you didn't directly answer any of them -- even when I directly asked "am I understanding correctly?"
In terms of walking on eggshells, it probably feels that way because if you say that yes, you do think of them as similar, it could result i the same kind of blowup as a previous time you made a similar analogy. So, your feelings are warranted!
@jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
>> if you'd like to make progress on the harassment here in general, please use your influence as Strategy Advisor to the Mastodon team to get them to announce ASAP that they're going to prioritize implementation of long-overdue anti-harassment technology like reply controls
Yes please, yesplease, yspls!! The lack of this feature is why I've had to stop recommending people join Mdon if they're likely targets--which hurts this community
Can say more if asked!
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Yes, FIRES is an excellent example of this.
It looks like there's a lot more documentation on the site now, too. Thank you for that :)
What's the best way for me to try connecting to a FIRES server today?
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I get it! These things are all fraught, eggshells are always appropriate, and it's very easy to type something infelicitous. The thing to do in that case (once it's pointed out) is say oops, i didn't phrase it well and didn't mean to imply X, what I was trying to highlight is Y.
What I was reacting to was both the analogy at such drastically different scale and "a similar pattern of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints". The anti-Black harassment isn't about viewpoints it was about identity, and in general it's not because people are judging quickly, it's because they're racist.
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The FIRES integration is very good news, I was very happy to see the funding from Sovereign Tech Agency!
But even though there isn't explicit funding for reply controls or local-only posts yet, they really need to be prioritized. I too have stopped recommending Mastodon to people because of the harassment and while it's not like these are magic bullets they'd make a big difference and signal that it's a priority.
@mellifluousbox I guess I really should be tagging you on this.
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@thisismissem maybe that is true. I’ll take you at your word. I read the thread again to make sure I wasn’t off the page somewhere, and that isn’t obvious to me. 🤷
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@kevingranade @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem And let people see you punching the Nazis, over and over again. Nothing is more welcoming to ordinary people than seeing Nazis get punched. Nazis need to know they're going to get punched for the rest of us to feel safe.
@stevendbrewer @kevingranade @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Great song from a Native fronted punk band. Gregg Deal is part of the Pyramid Lake Paiute nation. People love seeing Nazi teeth fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM0TnyGELuI -
My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Ben Pate, have you read Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance?
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There's two separate issues:
1. Is {CloudFlare or AI} a {good or bad} thing that we {should or shouldn't} use?
2. How to we treat people who disagree with us on point 1?
In any group, there will be disagreements. How we handle those determines if we're functioning adults or not.
Block people? Sure.
Block instances? Sure.
Berate people who build stuff? Nope.@benpate Despite the complaint that launched the conversation, there’s like 6 or 7 people disagreeing here and defying every expectation of ad hominem and escalation. Pretty cool to get this deep into a thread and still be essentially civil.
I think some folks are here in fedi to create a community of shared values. They’re not here to keep to themselves and live-and-let-live. For folks who want to create that community, pushing back on antithetical behaviour is important, not optional.
If I just block/mute and move on, I leave changing the world to someone else. I communicate nothing and accomplish nothing. I just selfishly curate my own bubble. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that. We are all doing that sometimes.
People pushing back against values they oppose are trying, in some small way, to create/defend a social environment that doesn’t just please them, but finds and welcomes likeminded people.
It’s true: nearly everything pisses off somebody. I’m sure I’ve been blocked, muted, and my whole instance has been defederated sometimes for reasons lost to time. But I am surrounded by a bunch of awesome, likeminded people that I really treasure. That’s what the scolding has accomplished. Folks who dislike the scolding nature, though, will eventually settle into a different layer of the fediverse that operates more to their liking. I think that’s a good outcome and the beauty of the whole thing.
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@stevendbrewer @kevingranade @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Great song from a Native fronted punk band. Gregg Deal is part of the Pyramid Lake Paiute nation. People love seeing Nazi teeth fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM0TnyGELuIThat's great, thanks for sharing! "Violence is the only language they speak, it's okay to punch Nazi teeth!"
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That's great, thanks for sharing! "Violence is the only language they speak, it's okay to punch Nazi teeth!"
@atraidez and Dead Pioneers is a great name too!
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@atraidez and Dead Pioneers is a great name too!
@jdp23 Enjoy the side quest of listening to their music and definitely check out Gregg's art. No genAI, no CloudFlare, no fascism, just punk.
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@thisismissem Nice. Thanks for that context!
@benpate @jdp23 @scottjenson @rakoo -
My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I think it's much better if the Fediverse grows slowly but only has good people joining.
Besides its not like people are lacking in choice for social media networks. This is the only one free of Nazis. Let's keep it that way. If that means it's a bit unwelcoming to people who side with Nazis, so be it.
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My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
Also I think if you don't have the basic purity test of don't support Nazi things, then how do you keep Nazis out?
And honestly if people see us being mean to Nazis, I feel it's going to make them want to join us more, not less.
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@thisismissem i very much appreciate your sharing that context. thank you!
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@jdp23 Enjoy the side quest of listening to their music and definitely check out Gregg's art. No genAI, no CloudFlare, no fascism, just punk.
@atraidez i'll check it out!
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I’m with you all the way, here.
Let’s say we DO evolve our tools. What would they look like when we’re done?
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem I wasn't just being silly when I riffed on Anuj's People Not Platforms with Build Purpose Not Products last year. The phrase was off the cuff, but the Futures & Systems stuff I was already chasing was very heavily about understanding your functional outcome - the purpose of a system, the need it meets - first, and keeping guardrails up *hard* as you work backwards to your building blocks.
Unfortunately and even here, we've mostly not done that.
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@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem I wasn't just being silly when I riffed on Anuj's People Not Platforms with Build Purpose Not Products last year. The phrase was off the cuff, but the Futures & Systems stuff I was already chasing was very heavily about understanding your functional outcome - the purpose of a system, the need it meets - first, and keeping guardrails up *hard* as you work backwards to your building blocks.
Unfortunately and even here, we've mostly not done that.
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem Our core tools are not bad, and it's not wrong that so many have started with "hey, I have an idea for this cool thing that'll solve my particular little nerdy problem" and set something out into the world. But the global digisphere is communication, which makes all tools relational. They become used in unexpected or unintended ways that can lead to harm, great or small, when we haven't considered whether the purpose meets the users' needs.
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@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem Our core tools are not bad, and it's not wrong that so many have started with "hey, I have an idea for this cool thing that'll solve my particular little nerdy problem" and set something out into the world. But the global digisphere is communication, which makes all tools relational. They become used in unexpected or unintended ways that can lead to harm, great or small, when we haven't considered whether the purpose meets the users' needs.
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem Or worse ... the purpose ends up being corrupted to meet the needs of a MISuser. Only a tiny few of us have not experienced the abuses of corporate social media manipulation, which means most of us are wary of SOMEthing, with good cause from our past experiences.
I don't think it's so much what our tools (products) would look like; I think it is that our greater community needs trust and reassurance that their safety is considered.
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@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem Or worse ... the purpose ends up being corrupted to meet the needs of a MISuser. Only a tiny few of us have not experienced the abuses of corporate social media manipulation, which means most of us are wary of SOMEthing, with good cause from our past experiences.
I don't think it's so much what our tools (products) would look like; I think it is that our greater community needs trust and reassurance that their safety is considered.
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem
The way that all came out in one of my first design exercises was "Great. you have clearly identified and accommodated your target clients' needs. Now go find 12 important stakeholders you have neglected to even think of so far, and design for them too."
An architect in a workshop I attended but this into practice by considering the experiences on the sidewalks of people who would never enter the buildings he designed.
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