A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
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@scottjenson @benpate @thisismissem I also think there's an important intersection to note that is occupied by some of the "fedi for me but not for thee..." types. People did "escape" to here because of bad experiences elsewhere, and that is such a typical human experience, and one that almost always leads to distrust and resistance when they perceive something from "that bad place" intruding in their new safe space. Right or wrong, I think that's an underlying experience that informs reactions.
@scottjenson @benpate @thisismissem
One of the answers is to continue evolving our tools for autonomy and choice, and where someone's new development causes worry, we need to work on renegotiating the gaps and boundaries amongst us. And continue repeating to everyone that there's room here for all of us, in all the ways we want to be here. And basically "don't be a dick" about it, from any position you're in.
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Yeah, I'm noticing that more and more. Nothing is able to pass the purity tests. Nobody is good enough. So, doing ANYTHING means we're going to berate you for it.
I try to avoid going straight to the conspiracy theories, but it makes a lot of sense. No better way to discredit something than "false flag"
@benpate
Please, let's not be stereotypical. The project is using AI and cloudflare, one is a political project and the other is a company, both have an explicit goal of reducing people's autonomy and independence. Their core identity is fundamentally opposite to what the fediverse enabled.
No one is shitting on @hongminhee for creating fedify. No one is shitting on @HolosSocial for doing their amazing in-device server. "Innovation" isn't berated, being anti-autonomy is
@thisismissem -
@benpate
Please, let's not be stereotypical. The project is using AI and cloudflare, one is a political project and the other is a company, both have an explicit goal of reducing people's autonomy and independence. Their core identity is fundamentally opposite to what the fediverse enabled.
No one is shitting on @hongminhee for creating fedify. No one is shitting on @HolosSocial for doing their amazing in-device server. "Innovation" isn't berated, being anti-autonomy is
@thisismissemThen those brave, anonymous redditors are welcome to build their own versions of autonomy.
But it's arrogant to assume that THEIR way is the ONLY way.
What's worse for the Fediverse? A niche project that uses tech that a few people don't like? Or a reputation as an unwelcoming place where people will insult your work for not agreeing with their *specific* ideologies?
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Then those brave, anonymous redditors are welcome to build their own versions of autonomy.
But it's arrogant to assume that THEIR way is the ONLY way.
What's worse for the Fediverse? A niche project that uses tech that a few people don't like? Or a reputation as an unwelcoming place where people will insult your work for not agreeing with their *specific* ideologies?
@benpate
I find it a bit special to assume reddit comments are in any way conclusive of how the fediverse is. You can't have an opinion of how welcoming the fediverse is by looking at arguments literally from outside the fediverse; I'd rather look at what people _in_ the fediverse have to say about that, and how they say it. Would you consider, say, Ethiopia to be a non-welcoming place because some USians went there once and are telling you to not go there ?
The fediverse is, sometimes, an unwelcoming place. Let's look at where this actually happens, and what people on the fedi say about it.
Also, you keep downplaying it but it's important: AI is a political project built on racism, sexism, environmental destruction and whose only goal is domination. It's _not_ a "specific ideology". It's not "just a tech". There are arguments, let's analyze them as they are, rationally, and not emotionally.
@thisismissem -
A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
/r/fediverse users responded:
"this is cancer"
"you are a horrible person"???
Can you please help me with a genuine question: what would make the #Fediverse a more welcoming place?
Yes, humans are just grumpy sometimes. But a real solution can't just be more HOA members reading the rules at the door.
What do YOU think would make a difference here?
Hi @benpate,
somehow I don't buy embracing a #monopoly goes well with 'diverse' an in #fediverse. But that's just my take. -
Hi @benpate,
somehow I don't buy embracing a #monopoly goes well with 'diverse' an in #fediverse. But that's just my take.On the surface, this makes a lot of sense.
But consider: “distributed” doesn’t mean “distributed, but only on small ISPs”
I say Fedi everywhere - even on the “bad” platforms. If it gives people the chance to learn about the Fediverse, it’s a win.
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More importantly: you’re welcome to disagree, ignore my posts, or even block me if you don’t agree with my choices.But the haters do damage to the Fediverse when they escalate from blocks to attacks and insults.
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On the surface, this makes a lot of sense.
But consider: “distributed” doesn’t mean “distributed, but only on small ISPs”
I say Fedi everywhere - even on the “bad” platforms. If it gives people the chance to learn about the Fediverse, it’s a win.
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More importantly: you’re welcome to disagree, ignore my posts, or even block me if you don’t agree with my choices.But the haters do damage to the Fediverse when they escalate from blocks to attacks and insults.
Hi @benpate
I totally agree to keep manners to keep controversial arguments enjoyable.No tolerance for hate.
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Culture change is hard. Sooooo many people got here "first" and think their claim is the only correct one. Has always been thus ...
One thing I can think of is remind people that r/fediverse is not exactly the place where "the fediverse" is developed, managed, or happening.
Then follow this dev and see what is up! I care much more that the software and the instance are acting like decent neighbours than I do about the infra its hosted on.
Agreed :)
I’m a software developer, not a social scientist. And though my bias is to turn everything into a technical problem, I doubt there’s a way to “change culture” AND give people freedom at the same time.
I’m on the hunt for tools that make it easy to behave like a functioning adult who’s gone to therapy, and make it hard to behave like a goblin with a megaphone.
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… and you’ve been on the front lines of it, Emelia. It’s more than just a technical issue, but what is your recommendation for how to deal with it?
Blocklists feel like a good start, but not nearly enough.
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On the surface, this makes a lot of sense.
But consider: “distributed” doesn’t mean “distributed, but only on small ISPs”
I say Fedi everywhere - even on the “bad” platforms. If it gives people the chance to learn about the Fediverse, it’s a win.
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More importantly: you’re welcome to disagree, ignore my posts, or even block me if you don’t agree with my choices.But the haters do damage to the Fediverse when they escalate from blocks to attacks and insults.
this is really the heart of the problem: a small number of very loud people see themselves as judges of what the "fediverse" means, or "federated" or "diverse". and i don't accept their authority.
and i do think the loudest are destroying the fediverse. i worry that when they're done, the fediverse will be perfectly in agreement on all "principles" and there will be like 23 people on it.
it was pointed out elsewhere on this thread that many of the loudest see themselves as refugees from corporate social media, and don't want to see the fediverse become like that. i get that—it's literally why i'm here. but i still don't think the fediverse needs their stewardship!
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this is really the heart of the problem: a small number of very loud people see themselves as judges of what the "fediverse" means, or "federated" or "diverse". and i don't accept their authority.
and i do think the loudest are destroying the fediverse. i worry that when they're done, the fediverse will be perfectly in agreement on all "principles" and there will be like 23 people on it.
it was pointed out elsewhere on this thread that many of the loudest see themselves as refugees from corporate social media, and don't want to see the fediverse become like that. i get that—it's literally why i'm here. but i still don't think the fediverse needs their stewardship!
Yeah, you’re spot on. And identifying as victim/refugees probably helps fuel their behavior.
I think we’ve all bumped into them here. And hey, haters get to have opinions, too.
I just try to identify them quickly, then mute or block liberally.
How do you handle them? Any suggestions?
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this is really the heart of the problem: a small number of very loud people see themselves as judges of what the "fediverse" means, or "federated" or "diverse". and i don't accept their authority.
and i do think the loudest are destroying the fediverse. i worry that when they're done, the fediverse will be perfectly in agreement on all "principles" and there will be like 23 people on it.
it was pointed out elsewhere on this thread that many of the loudest see themselves as refugees from corporate social media, and don't want to see the fediverse become like that. i get that—it's literally why i'm here. but i still don't think the fediverse needs their stewardship!
Todd Sundsted I also don't want to participate in corporate social media anymore. I would love for the niche communities of Reddit to end up here and I can pack away my last bit of dirty laundry. But I also agree that the puritanical stance of the old guard is bad for the Fediverse, and is bad for the Internet. They're not interested in a space where you can avoid corporate interests. They're interested in a space where they can avoid corporate interests, while also maintaining a singular network.
They want their cake, they want to eat it too, and they definitely don't care whether anyone else gets any cake.
They can have their safe spaces -- I want them to have them -- but they can't have them on the open Internet. That's just not the way open spaces work. They're not safe for people who feel wounded by the very presence of the world.
I hope they get their bubbles. There are some interesting Fedi projects out there that allow for servers to come together into families, and I think people who are so traumatized that they can't see certain public figures' names show up in their feeds without having their trauma responses triggered should find themselves a server family and just accept their bubble. They don't want to see what everyone else is talking about, anyway.
They just need to get over their FOMO.
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@scottjenson @benpate @thisismissem
One of the answers is to continue evolving our tools for autonomy and choice, and where someone's new development causes worry, we need to work on renegotiating the gaps and boundaries amongst us. And continue repeating to everyone that there's room here for all of us, in all the ways we want to be here. And basically "don't be a dick" about it, from any position you're in.
I’m with you all the way, here.
Let’s say we DO evolve our tools. What would they look like when we’re done?
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Yeah, you’re spot on. And identifying as victim/refugees probably helps fuel their behavior.
I think we’ve all bumped into them here. And hey, haters get to have opinions, too.
I just try to identify them quickly, then mute or block liberally.
How do you handle them? Any suggestions?
@benpate @mro i have the advantage of running my own server software (#ktistec) so i have lots of levers. right now it comes down to mostly 1) liberal blocking and 2) effective "algorithmic" feeds (that just means flexible hashtag, mention, keyword filtering and they're still work in progress). so far i haven't had to resort to blocking instances.
it's a good question though. like i said, i came here as a refugee myself and my goal is to build my own "safe space" on the fediverse. i just don't think anyone should be the arbiter of anyone else's definition of "safe space".
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@benpate @mro i have the advantage of running my own server software (#ktistec) so i have lots of levers. right now it comes down to mostly 1) liberal blocking and 2) effective "algorithmic" feeds (that just means flexible hashtag, mention, keyword filtering and they're still work in progress). so far i haven't had to resort to blocking instances.
it's a good question though. like i said, i came here as a refugee myself and my goal is to build my own "safe space" on the fediverse. i just don't think anyone should be the arbiter of anyone else's definition of "safe space".
I've been checking out your project. It looks fantastic! I especially like the idea of a "small server for a small group." It's a perfect use case for this tech :)
Keep up the good work. And, if you come up with any really great ways to handle the trolls, please share them with the rest of us?
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Me too. Inadvertently.
I’m on the Digital Ocean app platform, that automaticallly hosts everything behind CloudFlare.
I can understand people wanting to avoid being locked in to a specific platform. But to me, the coolest thing about this project is that it shows that you can host something completely “serverless” with Javascript.
Once we have that, how long is it until someone makes an open source CloudFlare-compatible environment?
Where will the haters be then?
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I’m with you all the way, here.
Let’s say we DO evolve our tools. What would they look like when we’re done?
@benpate @johannab
Second this request. I hear this "we just need better tools" request frequently actual solid suggestions are rare.But it's possible! For example, the ability to withdraw from a quote post completely defangs the quoter. It's a clear tool to combat harassment and is powerful as it takes power away from the quoter.
But in the case of reply guys, I'm not sure there is much to do. Any "voting" type of solution can be gamed. Offering "no reply" posts is a powerful option (someday) but not for everyone. "Followers only" is also much safer but much less interaction.
It's like we want there to be widespread posting but only 'the good people' can reply. Tricky problem.
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@benpate
I find it a bit special to assume reddit comments are in any way conclusive of how the fediverse is. You can't have an opinion of how welcoming the fediverse is by looking at arguments literally from outside the fediverse; I'd rather look at what people _in_ the fediverse have to say about that, and how they say it. Would you consider, say, Ethiopia to be a non-welcoming place because some USians went there once and are telling you to not go there ?
The fediverse is, sometimes, an unwelcoming place. Let's look at where this actually happens, and what people on the fedi say about it.
Also, you keep downplaying it but it's important: AI is a political project built on racism, sexism, environmental destruction and whose only goal is domination. It's _not_ a "specific ideology". It's not "just a tech". There are arguments, let's analyze them as they are, rationally, and not emotionally.
@thisismissemRight. A lot of people are in fedi to escape surveillance capitalism, and (justifiably IMHO) see Cloudflare as a surveillance capitalism company. And a lot of people in fedi are anti-fascist, and so don't like Cloudflare funding projects like Ladybird or Omarchy. And a lot of people see LLMs -- or more generally "AI" as a political project -- as reinforcing fascism and having huge ethical issues.
The strong pushback is antibodies. Cloudflare dropped wildebeest at least in part because there were blocklists going around that defederated all wildebeest instances. Gab gave up on federation because the pushback was so strong; Truth Social didn't even try.
True, it's very hit-or-miss just what sparks the antibodies. And, opinions differ: plenty of people here think the path to fedi's success is to be friendly to surveillance capitalism companies, or don't think of Ladybird and Omarchy as fascist aligned, or don't think it matters that Cloudflare is funding them. It' complex! But, these are the kinds of complexities people have to deal with if they want to navigate fedi.
So @benpate and @scottjenson , I don't think you're going to change that culture -- and you should really think about what message you're sending when you say you want to try.
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Right. A lot of people are in fedi to escape surveillance capitalism, and (justifiably IMHO) see Cloudflare as a surveillance capitalism company. And a lot of people in fedi are anti-fascist, and so don't like Cloudflare funding projects like Ladybird or Omarchy. And a lot of people see LLMs -- or more generally "AI" as a political project -- as reinforcing fascism and having huge ethical issues.
The strong pushback is antibodies. Cloudflare dropped wildebeest at least in part because there were blocklists going around that defederated all wildebeest instances. Gab gave up on federation because the pushback was so strong; Truth Social didn't even try.
True, it's very hit-or-miss just what sparks the antibodies. And, opinions differ: plenty of people here think the path to fedi's success is to be friendly to surveillance capitalism companies, or don't think of Ladybird and Omarchy as fascist aligned, or don't think it matters that Cloudflare is funding them. It' complex! But, these are the kinds of complexities people have to deal with if they want to navigate fedi.
So @benpate and @scottjenson , I don't think you're going to change that culture -- and you should really think about what message you're sending when you say you want to try.
There's two separate issues:
1. Is {CloudFlare or AI} a {good or bad} thing that we {should or shouldn't} use?
2. How to we treat people who disagree with us on point 1?
In any group, there will be disagreements. How we handle those determines if we're functioning adults or not.
Block people? Sure.
Block instances? Sure.
Berate people who build stuff? Nope. -
There's two separate issues:
1. Is {CloudFlare or AI} a {good or bad} thing that we {should or shouldn't} use?
2. How to we treat people who disagree with us on point 1?
In any group, there will be disagreements. How we handle those determines if we're functioning adults or not.
Block people? Sure.
Block instances? Sure.
Berate people who build stuff? Nope.You can treat people however you want. But I don't think you're going to have a lot of success convincing people who see Cloudflare as pro-fascist saying they should treat fascist supporters more politiely. They're just going to read your third line as
"Breate people trying to bring fascism into fedi? Nope"
EDIT: rephrased my paraphrase
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