A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
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Hey, thanks for sending this. I've read it through a couple of times
I understand that marking a post"public" does not mean that others have consent to use it. That's why we have consent-respecting quote-posts
It would help your doc to define the positive.. what existing flags DO represent consent? Or, do we need new ones?
Using tags.pub as an example, how SHOULD someone ask to boost a post? Should we build "consent-respecting boosts" too?
I listed the flags I know about in the "Honor existing opt-in and opt-out mechanisms", and talked about new ones in "Include an additional opt-in mechanism for your service if it's not just a search engine or profile discovery (or something very close to them)".
Easier saiud than done, of course. In general I think there's a big missing piece of consent-related tools. Bridgy Fed wound up basically rolling their own mechanism, but even after however many years it's been I'll bet there are a lot of people who would opt in if they knew about it ... but don't know about it, so haven't.
The tags.pub situation is interesting, and a great example of how it's not always obvious what's likely to cause a blowup -- there have been other hashtag aggregators that haven't led to the same response. The issue that sparked the blowup was related to relays (I've blissfully forgotten the details) and then there was an implementation glitch leading to some stuff appearing when it shouldn't have and on top of that Evan said "well it allows for opt-out which is consent" which is like throwing gasoline on the fire. (On my to-do list is to update the "DON'T say the things that developers who ignore consent typically say" section to include that.). On top of that, Evan previously argued against opt-in for Bridgy Fed, and was very pro-Meta, so it was already a situation where there wasn't a lot of trust. So it's hard to separate all that out.
Anyhow yes I think there should be the ability to restrict who can boost posts -- I believe GoToSocial's intereaction controls "canAnnounce" covers this, and hopefully it's in the FEP as well. Since this isn't widely supporte yet today, well, at the individual level I think it's generally accepted that it's okay to boost most posts although there are situations where it's better to ask (like if somebody's posting something relatively personal and it's not clear they want it broadcast to the world). For something like tags.pub, it's not obvious, which is why the doc has a section on "Get broad feedback before launching – and listen to it"
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@scottjenson Just to clarify, are you agreeing with that the pattern of pushing back against projects that see as fascist is similar to the harassment that greeted Black people coming to fedi?
@jdp23 To say they are "the same" is a gross over simplification. But I have talked to a few black ex-fediverse users and they made it clear that the 'helpful feedback" crowd around CWs was instrumental in them leaving.
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@jdp23 To say they are "the same" is a gross over simplification. But I have talked to a few black ex-fediverse users and they made it clear that the 'helpful feedback" crowd around CWs was instrumental in them leaving.
@scottjenson sure -- I talked about that in "Dogpiling, weaponized content warning discourse, and a fig leaf for mundane white supremacy". But what does that have to do with people pushing back against projects that they see as fascist?
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@golemwire @benpate interesting angle
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@benpate @jdp23 @rakoo I think this is getting at the heart of the issue. There are lots of what we'll call edge cases where someone mentions Cloudflare and honestly doesn't know their history. They then get clobbered by four or five reply guys calling them out on supporting fascists. It's overkill.
For my part, the number of times that people have massively misunderstood what I was saying and instead of asking a clarifying question, proceeded to completely overreact has happened quite often. It's exhausting.
This isn't about "allowing Nazis" it's about seeing them hiding behind dust bunnies everywhere.
@scottjenson @benpate @jdp23 @rakoo my primary preferred solution is to keep the ActivityPub network growing, preferably on software other than Mastodon, to dilute the influence of the toxic early Mastodon adopters as well as diluting Mastodon's outsize influence on fedi standards.
I am aware that this doesn't really deal with the problem of them scaring off the noobs.
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@thisismissem histamines is a good framing, quite possibly better. And whether it's histamines or antibodies, certainly times when it's gone awry, triggering more intensely than needed or in some cases when maybe it shouldn't. That said, part of the reason why (more obvious with consent-related stuff) is just because this response keeps getting triggered again and again and frustration leads to people reacting very sharply -- even though it's not newcomers fault that they've just walked into a situation with all this past history and nobody told them to be careful.
So yeah, definitely worth thinking about how to encouraged better-calibrated responses ... but also cutting down on the triggering would be good!
I've been trying to get a similar document written for the CG but there's been little to no interest in it.
Why am I not surprised to hear this?
to: @thisismissem
cc: @jdp23
re: "little to no interest"has such a CG document been proposed anywhere? i'm fairly sure we can get one written if it comes to it
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@scottjenson sure -- I talked about that in "Dogpiling, weaponized content warning discourse, and a fig leaf for mundane white supremacy". But what does that have to do with people pushing back against projects that they see as fascist?
@jdp23 It's all just a matter of degree. I'm not against punching nazis. It's just that IMHO, FAR too many people are getting punched.
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@jdp23 It's all just a matter of degree. I'm not against punching nazis. It's just that IMHO, FAR too many people are getting punched.
@scottjenson I see. Sorry to keep going on this, but you talked elsewhere in the thread about people misunderstanding what you were saying and not asking clarifying questions ... so I just want to make sure that I now understand your position.
It sounds to me like you agree with @thisismissem's statement that " this is all a similar pattern of behaviour of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints" -- emphasis on "similar" mine, because as you said "the same" is a gross oversmplification.
And from the last post it sounds to me that you also think people rudely pushing back on Reddit against a projectsthey see as fascist-friendly is related to the CW-related racist harassment that was instrumental in so many Black people leaving the fediverse, it's just a matter of degree.
Is that accurate?
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My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
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My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Not every social space needs to be for every person. I don't barge into Catholic churches and demand they welcome me (even though I'm sure several of them actually would be quite welcoming), I simply don't go. "Are you a nazi?" isn't a purity test, it's a decency test, and unless you let every single stranger into your house, I don't want to hear anything about "welcome everybody". Some people are not, in fact, welcome.
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My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
That's really the core difference of opinion. The "Big Fedi" view is that
Everyone on the planet should have an account on the fediverse (even Nazis, racists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people, and other marginalized communities). It will make the internet better and the world better (if Nazis et al are on the fediverse, as opposed to trying to keep them off)
From that perspective, "purity tests" like "is somebody trying to bring fascist technology here" are certainly a barrier. The same is true with other "purity tests" like whethre somebody is willing to use the right pronouns, does somebody advocate harssment of trans people, etc etc etc. As the Big Fedi view says
"It’s more important to bring good people to the fediverse than to keep (Nazis, facists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people and other marginalized communities) bad people off it. There may be some bad people, too, but we’ll (somehow come up with a way to) manage them (even though today's fediverse is unsafe by design and unsafe by default and most instances can't manage the bad people who are there today, so it's likely to get a lot worse rather than better as things get bigger)"
But not everybody sees it that way. A lot of people -- including me -- don't want fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots etc here, even if that leads to a smaller fedi in the short term. In fact, since there are so many other social networks that already welcome fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots, etc, I'd argue that the best approach to growing fedi sustainably is to be an alternative -- because there aren't a lot of others.
But okay, you're far from the only person with the "Big Fedi" view.i My point in this thread is that the rest of us aren't going to shut up about it. It's not going to be a welcoming place to people advocating for fascist technology and surveillance capitalism -- even if they don't realize what they're doing.
So if you want to grow fedi in a positive sustainable way, you're wasting your time trying to convince people here to be more welcoming to technology they see as problematic, whether it's Cloudflare, LLMs, or Meta.
Instead -- and whether or not you personally think fedi should resist fascism (etc), or however you personally think is the best way to keep the fascists (etc) out
spread the word that there are a lot of people here who do want to keep fascists (etc) out of fedi,
try to set expectations for developers leveraging surveillance captitalism technology that they're likely to be greeted harshly
encourage developers to keep fedi's long-standing cultural norms in mind and get feedback on what they're doing before just showing up
EDIT: whoops, I posted this before I saw @davidgerard''s response here, with some very good points including this:
"To get back to the start of the thread, you do understand that Cloudflare are funding straight up fascist projects - I urge you to read the shit DHH is posting these days before making a squeak claiming otherwise - and that's enough reason why objecting loud and often and widely fediblocking Cloudflare's fedi service is a social good? Remembering that Cloudflare's previous greatest hit was protecting KiwiFarms."
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@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Not every social space needs to be for every person. I don't barge into Catholic churches and demand they welcome me (even though I'm sure several of them actually would be quite welcoming), I simply don't go. "Are you a nazi?" isn't a purity test, it's a decency test, and unless you let every single stranger into your house, I don't want to hear anything about "welcome everybody". Some people are not, in fact, welcome.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Moreover, the fediverse already handles this: instances choose with whom to federate, or not. Plenty of nazi instances to hang out on and be a shitheel. You won't be able to talk to anyone decent, but they're out there. Is that not sufficient? Nazis are already on the fediverse, so I'm not sure what you actually want to change. Should more servers federate with nazi servers?
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My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Gatekeeping is good, actually - especially when discriminated and endangered communities and individuals are involved. People have a right to gatekeep their own communities, and to keep them as small as they need or like.
No: Nazis don't count. Nazis are not welcome here. -
That's really the core difference of opinion. The "Big Fedi" view is that
Everyone on the planet should have an account on the fediverse (even Nazis, racists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people, and other marginalized communities). It will make the internet better and the world better (if Nazis et al are on the fediverse, as opposed to trying to keep them off)
From that perspective, "purity tests" like "is somebody trying to bring fascist technology here" are certainly a barrier. The same is true with other "purity tests" like whethre somebody is willing to use the right pronouns, does somebody advocate harssment of trans people, etc etc etc. As the Big Fedi view says
"It’s more important to bring good people to the fediverse than to keep (Nazis, facists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people and other marginalized communities) bad people off it. There may be some bad people, too, but we’ll (somehow come up with a way to) manage them (even though today's fediverse is unsafe by design and unsafe by default and most instances can't manage the bad people who are there today, so it's likely to get a lot worse rather than better as things get bigger)"
But not everybody sees it that way. A lot of people -- including me -- don't want fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots etc here, even if that leads to a smaller fedi in the short term. In fact, since there are so many other social networks that already welcome fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots, etc, I'd argue that the best approach to growing fedi sustainably is to be an alternative -- because there aren't a lot of others.
But okay, you're far from the only person with the "Big Fedi" view.i My point in this thread is that the rest of us aren't going to shut up about it. It's not going to be a welcoming place to people advocating for fascist technology and surveillance capitalism -- even if they don't realize what they're doing.
So if you want to grow fedi in a positive sustainable way, you're wasting your time trying to convince people here to be more welcoming to technology they see as problematic, whether it's Cloudflare, LLMs, or Meta.
Instead -- and whether or not you personally think fedi should resist fascism (etc), or however you personally think is the best way to keep the fascists (etc) out
spread the word that there are a lot of people here who do want to keep fascists (etc) out of fedi,
try to set expectations for developers leveraging surveillance captitalism technology that they're likely to be greeted harshly
encourage developers to keep fedi's long-standing cultural norms in mind and get feedback on what they're doing before just showing up
EDIT: whoops, I posted this before I saw @davidgerard''s response here, with some very good points including this:
"To get back to the start of the thread, you do understand that Cloudflare are funding straight up fascist projects - I urge you to read the shit DHH is posting these days before making a squeak claiming otherwise - and that's enough reason why objecting loud and often and widely fediblocking Cloudflare's fedi service is a social good? Remembering that Cloudflare's previous greatest hit was protecting KiwiFarms."
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
> fedi's long-standing cultural norms
i reject your claim that you (or anyone, honestly) have any authority in this area. and that's really the core issue in this thread. regardless of ideology, some people on the fediverse feel like they have authority to set the standards of the fediverse. they are very loud about it. many are even hostile.
what's really annoying about this thread is that no one here wants fascists on the fediverse. you've all said exactly that. this thread isn't about fascism. it's about bullying.
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That's really the core difference of opinion. The "Big Fedi" view is that
Everyone on the planet should have an account on the fediverse (even Nazis, racists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people, and other marginalized communities). It will make the internet better and the world better (if Nazis et al are on the fediverse, as opposed to trying to keep them off)
From that perspective, "purity tests" like "is somebody trying to bring fascist technology here" are certainly a barrier. The same is true with other "purity tests" like whethre somebody is willing to use the right pronouns, does somebody advocate harssment of trans people, etc etc etc. As the Big Fedi view says
"It’s more important to bring good people to the fediverse than to keep (Nazis, facists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people and other marginalized communities) bad people off it. There may be some bad people, too, but we’ll (somehow come up with a way to) manage them (even though today's fediverse is unsafe by design and unsafe by default and most instances can't manage the bad people who are there today, so it's likely to get a lot worse rather than better as things get bigger)"
But not everybody sees it that way. A lot of people -- including me -- don't want fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots etc here, even if that leads to a smaller fedi in the short term. In fact, since there are so many other social networks that already welcome fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots, etc, I'd argue that the best approach to growing fedi sustainably is to be an alternative -- because there aren't a lot of others.
But okay, you're far from the only person with the "Big Fedi" view.i My point in this thread is that the rest of us aren't going to shut up about it. It's not going to be a welcoming place to people advocating for fascist technology and surveillance capitalism -- even if they don't realize what they're doing.
So if you want to grow fedi in a positive sustainable way, you're wasting your time trying to convince people here to be more welcoming to technology they see as problematic, whether it's Cloudflare, LLMs, or Meta.
Instead -- and whether or not you personally think fedi should resist fascism (etc), or however you personally think is the best way to keep the fascists (etc) out
spread the word that there are a lot of people here who do want to keep fascists (etc) out of fedi,
try to set expectations for developers leveraging surveillance captitalism technology that they're likely to be greeted harshly
encourage developers to keep fedi's long-standing cultural norms in mind and get feedback on what they're doing before just showing up
EDIT: whoops, I posted this before I saw @davidgerard''s response here, with some very good points including this:
"To get back to the start of the thread, you do understand that Cloudflare are funding straight up fascist projects - I urge you to read the shit DHH is posting these days before making a squeak claiming otherwise - and that's enough reason why objecting loud and often and widely fediblocking Cloudflare's fedi service is a social good? Remembering that Cloudflare's previous greatest hit was protecting KiwiFarms."
@siliconsjang I replied to you on Reddit and mentioned that there's been a lot of discussion here on fedi, and talked about some of the context. Here's a thread with a bunch of discussion and some more context. it really is a problem that there's no way for people who haven't been tracking all this stuff for years o know all of this!
Here's my Reddit post for those who arent't tracking it: https://www.reddit.com/r/fediverse/comments/1v2mt69/i_built_a_full_fediverse_service_that_runs_100_on/
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My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem if you're a fascist sympathizer or "centrist" or pushing LLM use I want you to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome being here.
Despite your bullshit handwaving to try to focus on tone over substance, people are absolutely capable of discriminating between "fuck off fascist" and "being unwelcoming". -
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem if you're a fascist sympathizer or "centrist" or pushing LLM use I want you to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome being here.
Despite your bullshit handwaving to try to focus on tone over substance, people are absolutely capable of discriminating between "fuck off fascist" and "being unwelcoming".@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Ok the most egregious thing here, "how you punch nazis is important" yes, but the only questions are "are you doing it enough" and "are you doing it hard enough" and "are you injuring yourself while doing it".
"Are you punching nazis in a polite enough way" is somewhere between missing the point and nazi apologia. -
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
> fedi's long-standing cultural norms
i reject your claim that you (or anyone, honestly) have any authority in this area. and that's really the core issue in this thread. regardless of ideology, some people on the fediverse feel like they have authority to set the standards of the fediverse. they are very loud about it. many are even hostile.
what's really annoying about this thread is that no one here wants fascists on the fediverse. you've all said exactly that. this thread isn't about fascism. it's about bullying.
Oh come on. I'm not saying I have have the authority to set the standards on the fediverse.
But I absolutely am qualified to discuss the tensions around the Big Fedi view -- and the analogies of the reactions to Cloudflare and to Meta. Maybe you don't agree with my perspective, but you'll have to make the case if you want to convince others.
no one here wants fascists on the fediverse
True. But there's disagreement on whether or not we want surveillance capitalism companies that support fascism on the fediverse, whether it's Cloudflare or Meta. And, there's disagreeement about the primary goal -- @benpate was quite explicity that his goal was to grow the fediverse -- and whether "purity tests" are good or not.
What's your perspective on these?
Should people in fedi welcome surveillance capitalism and pro-fascist technologies?
Do you think the primary goal should be to grow fedi, or is minimizing the influence of fascists on fedi more important?
@scottjenson
@toddsundsted @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem -
Oh come on. I'm not saying I have have the authority to set the standards on the fediverse.
But I absolutely am qualified to discuss the tensions around the Big Fedi view -- and the analogies of the reactions to Cloudflare and to Meta. Maybe you don't agree with my perspective, but you'll have to make the case if you want to convince others.
no one here wants fascists on the fediverse
True. But there's disagreement on whether or not we want surveillance capitalism companies that support fascism on the fediverse, whether it's Cloudflare or Meta. And, there's disagreeement about the primary goal -- @benpate was quite explicity that his goal was to grow the fediverse -- and whether "purity tests" are good or not.
What's your perspective on these?
Should people in fedi welcome surveillance capitalism and pro-fascist technologies?
Do you think the primary goal should be to grow fedi, or is minimizing the influence of fascists on fedi more important?
@scottjenson
@toddsundsted @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
fascism does not seem to be a daily problem on the fediverse. jerks are a daily problem. since fascists are a subset of jerks, tbh i'd rather cast the net wide and ask for fewer jerks.
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@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
fascism does not seem to be a daily problem on the fediverse. jerks are a daily problem. since fascists are a subset of jerks, tbh i'd rather cast the net wide and ask for fewer jerks.
I'm all for fewer jerks in general, but I was asking specifically about pro-fascist technologies and the priority between growing fedi and minimizing the influence of fascists. I'm curious what you think!
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