A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
-
I'm all for fewer jerks in general, but I was asking specifically about pro-fascist technologies and the priority between growing fedi and minimizing the influence of fascists. I'm curious what you think!
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem you present false dichotomies. present honest questions and we can have a discussion.
-
My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
Let's recap, just in case any adults are still watching this conversation.
I saw a bunch of goons attacking a kid on Reddit for building Fediverse software on a platform they don't like.
Mentioned it here and asked "what would make the Fediverse a more welcoming place?"
Fast forward to people with no nuance calling me "pro-Nazi." Thank you, kids, for demonstrating the problem I'm trying to avoid.
@davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
-
Let's recap, just in case any adults are still watching this conversation.
I saw a bunch of goons attacking a kid on Reddit for building Fediverse software on a platform they don't like.
Mentioned it here and asked "what would make the Fediverse a more welcoming place?"
Fast forward to people with no nuance calling me "pro-Nazi." Thank you, kids, for demonstrating the problem I'm trying to avoid.
@davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I'm happy to talk to anyone here on the Fediverse, and to talk in good faith about how we make this better.
When people prove that they can't behave well, the adult response is to block liberally and move on. There's no debate to be won with people who can only think in black and white.
-
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Not every social space needs to be for every person. I don't barge into Catholic churches and demand they welcome me (even though I'm sure several of them actually would be quite welcoming), I simply don't go. "Are you a nazi?" isn't a purity test, it's a decency test, and unless you let every single stranger into your house, I don't want to hear anything about "welcome everybody". Some people are not, in fact, welcome.
@theorangetheme @davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I agree with your entire post. And, I don't think I ever said "welcome everybody." If I did, it was a mistake and I'm sorry.
Definitely NOT everybody. There are some red lines that people can't cross. So no, "are you a Nazi" isn't a purity test.
But let's not pretend that the Fediverse doesn't have purity tests.
-
@theorangetheme @davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I agree with your entire post. And, I don't think I ever said "welcome everybody." If I did, it was a mistake and I'm sorry.
Definitely NOT everybody. There are some red lines that people can't cross. So no, "are you a Nazi" isn't a purity test.
But let's not pretend that the Fediverse doesn't have purity tests.
@benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem I'm not really interested in litigating the broader fediverse. I know what I will and will not accept, and I act accordingly with the tools I have. This gives me the most agency and is also the most feasible solution to dealing with people online I don't like.
-
@theorangetheme @davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I agree with your entire post. And, I don't think I ever said "welcome everybody." If I did, it was a mistake and I'm sorry.
Definitely NOT everybody. There are some red lines that people can't cross. So no, "are you a Nazi" isn't a purity test.
But let's not pretend that the Fediverse doesn't have purity tests.
You said you want it to be "inclusive place for everyone". So, one possible followon is to think about how to rephrase that more in line with what you really mean.
As for purity tests ... this is a term that right-wingers and centrists routinely use to attack any attempt by progressives and leftists who critique politicians for taking anti-trans positions, or voting for anti-immigrant or anti-Black bills, or not opposing genocide, etc etc etc. So really the best thing is not to use this term. But if you are going to use it, "no Nazis" absolutely is a purity test -- and so is "no transphobes". So yes the Fediverse has them, but that's not a bad thing.
-
@benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem I'm not really interested in litigating the broader fediverse. I know what I will and will not accept, and I act accordingly with the tools I have. This gives me the most agency and is also the most feasible solution to dealing with people online I don't like.
This seems perfectly reasonable :)
I'm a tool maker. I'm taking a hard look at "the tools we have" and wondering why they're still failing.
Technology will never change human nature or the cultures we develop.
But maybe we can make tools that fit human nature better, that foster more intelligent discourse, and that let communities find each other without descending into extremism.
Any ideas? What tools would work better?
-
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Ok the most egregious thing here, "how you punch nazis is important" yes, but the only questions are "are you doing it enough" and "are you doing it hard enough" and "are you injuring yourself while doing it".
"Are you punching nazis in a polite enough way" is somewhere between missing the point and nazi apologia.@kevingranade @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem And let people see you punching the Nazis, over and over again. Nothing is more welcoming to ordinary people than seeing Nazis get punched. Nazis need to know they're going to get punched for the rest of us to feel safe.
-
This seems perfectly reasonable :)
I'm a tool maker. I'm taking a hard look at "the tools we have" and wondering why they're still failing.
Technology will never change human nature or the cultures we develop.
But maybe we can make tools that fit human nature better, that foster more intelligent discourse, and that let communities find each other without descending into extremism.
Any ideas? What tools would work better?
I don't think this is fundamentally a technology problem. Tools can help, but they're not the place to start.
I think a better starting place is
you and other influential fedi people to be more outspoken that fedi is a place where a lot of people -- including you -- are opposed to fascism and surveillance capitalism, care a lot about LGBTQIA2S+ people and consent.
influential fedi devs and the CG should prioritize making new develoeprs aware that these norms are important and it's easy to run afoul of them, and develop material to help new developers learn te risks. (The nobot flag @julian and I were just talking about in another thread is another one of these footguns waiting to happen.)
When stuff like this comes up, ground yourselves in these principles rather than focusing on civility. And when it's an unintentional mistake (whcih it often is), reach out to the people involved to give them the context and try to get it resolved quietly -- or at least help them understand why it blew up -- rather than throwing gas on the flames.
As @stevendbrewer says, let people see you punching the Nazis, because people really like that -- and it doesn't happen that much on most social networks.
https://wandering.shop/@stevendbrewer/116971019179558719
- And especially if you're cis and/or white, and/or a guy also step in when you see racist or anti-trans or sexist incidents. Call the person in (or out if necessary), or if somebody else has already done the call in/out support them.
-
That's really the core difference of opinion. The "Big Fedi" view is that
Everyone on the planet should have an account on the fediverse (even Nazis, racists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people, and other marginalized communities). It will make the internet better and the world better (if Nazis et al are on the fediverse, as opposed to trying to keep them off)
From that perspective, "purity tests" like "is somebody trying to bring fascist technology here" are certainly a barrier. The same is true with other "purity tests" like whethre somebody is willing to use the right pronouns, does somebody advocate harssment of trans people, etc etc etc. As the Big Fedi view says
"It’s more important to bring good people to the fediverse than to keep (Nazis, facists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people and other marginalized communities) bad people off it. There may be some bad people, too, but we’ll (somehow come up with a way to) manage them (even though today's fediverse is unsafe by design and unsafe by default and most instances can't manage the bad people who are there today, so it's likely to get a lot worse rather than better as things get bigger)"
But not everybody sees it that way. A lot of people -- including me -- don't want fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots etc here, even if that leads to a smaller fedi in the short term. In fact, since there are so many other social networks that already welcome fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots, etc, I'd argue that the best approach to growing fedi sustainably is to be an alternative -- because there aren't a lot of others.
But okay, you're far from the only person with the "Big Fedi" view.i My point in this thread is that the rest of us aren't going to shut up about it. It's not going to be a welcoming place to people advocating for fascist technology and surveillance capitalism -- even if they don't realize what they're doing.
So if you want to grow fedi in a positive sustainable way, you're wasting your time trying to convince people here to be more welcoming to technology they see as problematic, whether it's Cloudflare, LLMs, or Meta.
Instead -- and whether or not you personally think fedi should resist fascism (etc), or however you personally think is the best way to keep the fascists (etc) out
spread the word that there are a lot of people here who do want to keep fascists (etc) out of fedi,
try to set expectations for developers leveraging surveillance captitalism technology that they're likely to be greeted harshly
encourage developers to keep fedi's long-standing cultural norms in mind and get feedback on what they're doing before just showing up
EDIT: whoops, I posted this before I saw @davidgerard''s response here, with some very good points including this:
"To get back to the start of the thread, you do understand that Cloudflare are funding straight up fascist projects - I urge you to read the shit DHH is posting these days before making a squeak claiming otherwise - and that's enough reason why objecting loud and often and widely fediblocking Cloudflare's fedi service is a social good? Remembering that Cloudflare's previous greatest hit was protecting KiwiFarms."
@jdp23 the thing that always concerns me about big fedi is the need to connect everyone on the one network to rule them all. Which to me is risky.
"“There are 8 billion humans, and we should aim to serve every single one….We can’t exactly hold up the Fediverse as a viable alternative when we leave so many people behind.”
— Ben Pate at Fedicon August 02 2025"
Enabling connection online, yes. Making networks accessible to everyone absolutely. Not on one network.
https://dotart.blog/cobbles/reflections-on-fedicon-and-foss-guilt-by-association
-
@jdp23 the thing that always concerns me about big fedi is the need to connect everyone on the one network to rule them all. Which to me is risky.
"“There are 8 billion humans, and we should aim to serve every single one….We can’t exactly hold up the Fediverse as a viable alternative when we leave so many people behind.”
— Ben Pate at Fedicon August 02 2025"
Enabling connection online, yes. Making networks accessible to everyone absolutely. Not on one network.
https://dotart.blog/cobbles/reflections-on-fedicon-and-foss-guilt-by-association
@jdp23 I prefer the idea of archipelagoes to be honest.
-
@jdp23 I prefer the idea of archipelagoes to be honest.
@onepict yes! archipelagos FTW! @noracodes's post really changed how I thought of the possibilities here, and it's great to see the work Oliphant and Bonfire (which now has an archipelego mode!) are doing to move things in that direction
-
@scottjenson I see. Sorry to keep going on this, but you talked elsewhere in the thread about people misunderstanding what you were saying and not asking clarifying questions ... so I just want to make sure that I now understand your position.
It sounds to me like you agree with @thisismissem's statement that " this is all a similar pattern of behaviour of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints" -- emphasis on "similar" mine, because as you said "the same" is a gross oversmplification.
And from the last post it sounds to me that you also think people rudely pushing back on Reddit against a projectsthey see as fascist-friendly is related to the CW-related racist harassment that was instrumental in so many Black people leaving the fediverse, it's just a matter of degree.
Is that accurate?
@jdp23 @thisismissem
I feel like I'm walking on egg shells. I'm just trying to make a simple point:
* People have left the fediverse because of over-zealous behavior
* I'd like there to be less of that so good people stick around.That's it. Just to be clear: this does not mean I want to protect fascists. Those are not good people.
-
@davidgerard @benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem actually yes the "missing the point" out is giving people too much credit / plausible deniability my bad.
-
A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
/r/fediverse users responded:
"this is cancer"
"you are a horrible person"???
Can you please help me with a genuine question: what would make the #Fediverse a more welcoming place?
Yes, humans are just grumpy sometimes. But a real solution can't just be more HOA members reading the rules at the door.
What do YOU think would make a difference here?
@benpate So, my main takeaway from this is that so many of us are having fun on the Fediverse, we forget to participate in conversations *outside* the Fediverse, like on Reddit.
But that's the point where new people are finding us. The conversations about the Fediverse happening inside siloed social networks are the threshold people have to cross to get here.
We should be on the other side, welcoming them.
Thanks for the reminder. I just joined /r/fediverse and I'll try to help.
-
A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
/r/fediverse users responded:
"this is cancer"
"you are a horrible person"???
Can you please help me with a genuine question: what would make the #Fediverse a more welcoming place?
Yes, humans are just grumpy sometimes. But a real solution can't just be more HOA members reading the rules at the door.
What do YOU think would make a difference here?
@benpate i wrote a piece on why i stopped hosting a server here https://gfsc.community/why-we-discontinued-our-mastodon-server/
-
@benpate So, my main takeaway from this is that so many of us are having fun on the Fediverse, we forget to participate in conversations *outside* the Fediverse, like on Reddit.
But that's the point where new people are finding us. The conversations about the Fediverse happening inside siloed social networks are the threshold people have to cross to get here.
We should be on the other side, welcoming them.
Thanks for the reminder. I just joined /r/fediverse and I'll try to help.
@benpate Here's the thread for those who want to participate:
-
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
fascism does not seem to be a daily problem on the fediverse. jerks are a daily problem. since fascists are a subset of jerks, tbh i'd rather cast the net wide and ask for fewer jerks.
fascism does not seem to be a daily problem on the fediverse.
Is this a joke? The fediverse is full of loud and proud racists, misogynists, neo-nazis, etc. I'm just glad I don't have to see most of it because the moderators on my instance seem to be very good and quick to ban those servers.
-
@jdp23 @thisismissem
I feel like I'm walking on egg shells. I'm just trying to make a simple point:
* People have left the fediverse because of over-zealous behavior
* I'd like there to be less of that so good people stick around.That's it. Just to be clear: this does not mean I want to protect fascists. Those are not good people.
If you want the developer who was the target of the snarky comments on Reddit to stick around, consider reaching out to her and giving some context as I did. If you'd like there to be less of that in general I've already said what I think will help elsewhere in the thread so won't bother to repeat it here.
And if you'd like to make progress on the harassment here in general, please use your influence as Strategy Advisor to the Mastodon team to get them to announce ASAP that they're going to prioritize implementation of long-overdue anti-harassment technology like reply controls -- something @inquiline and others have highlighted repeatedly plug a big gap -- and local-only posts ... and then to prioritize it and get it out quickly. Because that's something that could have a big immediate impact, and when people see you and the team not prioritizing that they assume you don't see it as a priority.
On your point elsewhere about the pattern of people misunderstanding you and overreacting rather than asking clarifying questions ... I asked several questions, and you didn't directly answer any of them -- even when I directly asked "am I understanding correctly?"
In terms of walking on eggshells, it probably feels that way because if you say that yes, you do think of them as similar, it could result i the same kind of blowup as a previous time you made a similar analogy. So, your feelings are warranted!
-
Agreed in general. If you look at my reddit post, I very much phrased it as a call in -- https://www.reddit.com/r/fediverse/comments/1v2mt69/i_built_a_full_fediverse_service_that_runs_100_on/. And similarly I called in both you and Scott on what I saw as an unfortunate analogy between a couple of rude posts on Reddit and the racist harassment the drove Black people away, rather than trying to blow it up into some kind of big firestorm. And my suggestions to Ben also included
And when it's an unintentional mistake (whcih it often is), reach out to the people involved to give them the context and try to get it resolved quietly -- or at least help them understand why it blew up -- rather than throwing gas on the flames.
That said there are times when call-outs are warranted. And in general even in situations where a call-in would probably have worked out better, it's not useful to complain about the lack of civility of the people making the call-out.
Ciao! Sembra che tu sia interessato a questa conversazione, ma non hai ancora un account.
Stanco di dover scorrere gli stessi post a ogni visita? Quando registri un account, tornerai sempre esattamente dove eri rimasto e potrai scegliere di essere avvisato delle nuove risposte (tramite email o notifica push). Potrai anche salvare segnalibri e votare i post per mostrare il tuo apprezzamento agli altri membri della comunità.
Con il tuo contributo, questo post potrebbe essere ancora migliore 💗
Registrati Accedi