Periodic official communication, just to clarify a few things.
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Periodic official communication, just to clarify a few things.
The BSD Cafe is an open, inclusive and friendly community. A community of people who try to be *“pro, not against”* and *“supporters, not haters”*: enthusiasts, friends, people who come here to share, to learn, to discuss. Not to hate each other.
This does not mean that we all have to think in the same way. Quite the opposite: it means that we can have different opinions, discuss them, defend them strongly, and question each other’s ideas.
What it does not mean is that it is acceptable to insult, threaten, attack people, or pretend that there can only be one morally acceptable position on every possible subject.
Calling the BSD Cafe a "Nazi Bar" from the outside simply because we do not automatically censor people who have an opinion different from yours is offensive towards the hundreds of people who are part of this community.
People are, of course, free to criticise what happens here. But expecting us to attack, ban or silence someone because you believe they deserve it, and then accusing the whole Cafe because we do not, is something different.
And I have seen something even worse lately: actual calls for hate. The equivalent of *“hey, everyone, go and attack this person”*, simply because that person does not share your position.
No. This is not acceptable.
And, dear friends, declaring yourself anti-Nazi while organising a crowd against somebody, intimidating them and treating them as an enemy who deserves to be attacked means using exactly the kind of methods you claim to oppose.
I do not say this lightly. I come from a family, and from a country, with a very real history of fascism and of the antifascism that immediately followed it. These are not just abstract words to me.
Hate is not tolerated, at any level, inside or outside the Cafe. The same is true for threats, intimidation and aggression. Believing that our cause is right does not make those behaviours more acceptable.
You disagree with someone? Say it. Explain why. Argue against their ideas. Support yours with all the conviction you want. But do not aggressively attack. This is not tolerated.
And expecting everyone else to attack that person too, or considering them somehow complicit because they do not, is something different. And it is not what I want for this community.
On any subject.
Even pineapple on pizza (!!!).
The Fediverse is a non-place, but it is made of real people. Wonderful people, very often. Let’s not turn it into version 2.0 of traditional social media, where every discussion becomes a war and anyone who does not think exactly like us automatically becomes the enemy.
In the last few weeks I have seen people stepping away exactly because of this. On different subjects, people accused of the worst things not because of something they had done, but because they had not said what someone expected them to say. Some of them, for their own wellbeing, simply decided to take a step back.
We all lost something because of that. Nobody gained anything.
So let’s keep supporting what we believe in. Let’s do it with conviction, and with firmness when needed. But let’s discuss ideas without turning people into targets.
From experience, I have learnt that real change also requires discussion, organisation, patience and concrete actions. We can disagree deeply without stopping considering each other as people.
This is the kind of place I want the BSD Cafe to continue to be.
@stefano thank you for staying reasonable!
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@simondassow @benedikt_lauenburg Yes, but I think the paradox of tolerance has to be applied consistently.
We cannot tolerate intolerance, regardless of where it comes from, and regardless of whether the people expressing it happen to have an ideology close to our own.
Let me give you a real example that I have just been given permission to share, without identifying details.
A few months ago, after some encouragement from me, someone joined the Fediverse. Not the BSD Cafe, but a more general-purpose instance.
They started posting photos, thoughts and experiences, made quite a few mutual connections, and eventually almost stopped using their X account.
At some point, somebody asked why they had not deleted their X account completely. Their answer was simple: they still had a lot of content there that they wanted to keep, and some contacts who had not moved to the Fediverse yet. They hardly used it anymore, but did not want to delete it.
One morning they woke up and discovered that roughly half of their connections here had disappeared.
Then came private messages calling them a Nazi because they still had an account on X. A couple of messages contained very serious threats, including variations of "you posted photos, I know where you live", with additional details.
Then complete strangers started insulting them.
Someone had apparently posted something along the lines of: "Hey, X is a Nazi. Everyone block them."
That was enough: they tried to explain. It made no difference. Eventually they deleted everything and left, disappointed and bitter about the whole experience.
Who benefited from this?
Given time, this person would probably have brought more people to the Fediverse. They might eventually have deleted their X account too.
Instead, the exact opposite happened.
And this is precisely why I think we have to be careful when invoking the paradox of tolerance.
Being intolerant of people who threaten others, deny their rights, intimidate them or organise harassment is one thing.
Deciding that somebody belongs to a morally unacceptable category, and therefore intimidation, collective punishment or harassment against them becomes justified, is something very different.
Intolerance does not become tolerance just because we believe we are using it against the right people.
Do not disregard the possibility that this might just be a strategy from people who like to see the Fediverse fail. By creating dissent. Usual suspects...
CC: @simondassow@masto.ai @benedikt_lauenburg@norden.social
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Do not disregard the possibility that this might just be a strategy from people who like to see the Fediverse fail. By creating dissent. Usual suspects...
CC: @simondassow@masto.ai @benedikt_lauenburg@norden.social@andi @simondassow @benedikt_lauenburg absolutely true.
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@simondassow @benedikt_lauenburg Yes, but I think the paradox of tolerance has to be applied consistently.
We cannot tolerate intolerance, regardless of where it comes from, and regardless of whether the people expressing it happen to have an ideology close to our own.
Let me give you a real example that I have just been given permission to share, without identifying details.
A few months ago, after some encouragement from me, someone joined the Fediverse. Not the BSD Cafe, but a more general-purpose instance.
They started posting photos, thoughts and experiences, made quite a few mutual connections, and eventually almost stopped using their X account.
At some point, somebody asked why they had not deleted their X account completely. Their answer was simple: they still had a lot of content there that they wanted to keep, and some contacts who had not moved to the Fediverse yet. They hardly used it anymore, but did not want to delete it.
One morning they woke up and discovered that roughly half of their connections here had disappeared.
Then came private messages calling them a Nazi because they still had an account on X. A couple of messages contained very serious threats, including variations of "you posted photos, I know where you live", with additional details.
Then complete strangers started insulting them.
Someone had apparently posted something along the lines of: "Hey, X is a Nazi. Everyone block them."
That was enough: they tried to explain. It made no difference. Eventually they deleted everything and left, disappointed and bitter about the whole experience.
Who benefited from this?
Given time, this person would probably have brought more people to the Fediverse. They might eventually have deleted their X account too.
Instead, the exact opposite happened.
And this is precisely why I think we have to be careful when invoking the paradox of tolerance.
Being intolerant of people who threaten others, deny their rights, intimidate them or organise harassment is one thing.
Deciding that somebody belongs to a morally unacceptable category, and therefore intimidation, collective punishment or harassment against them becomes justified, is something very different.
Intolerance does not become tolerance just because we believe we are using it against the right people.
@stefano @benedikt_lauenburg Oh, that's bad. It all needs accountability and reason to work.
-
Periodic official communication, just to clarify a few things.
The BSD Cafe is an open, inclusive and friendly community. A community of people who try to be *“pro, not against”* and *“supporters, not haters”*: enthusiasts, friends, people who come here to share, to learn, to discuss. Not to hate each other.
This does not mean that we all have to think in the same way. Quite the opposite: it means that we can have different opinions, discuss them, defend them strongly, and question each other’s ideas.
What it does not mean is that it is acceptable to insult, threaten, attack people, or pretend that there can only be one morally acceptable position on every possible subject.
Calling the BSD Cafe a "Nazi Bar" from the outside simply because we do not automatically censor people who have an opinion different from yours is offensive towards the hundreds of people who are part of this community.
People are, of course, free to criticise what happens here. But expecting us to attack, ban or silence someone because you believe they deserve it, and then accusing the whole Cafe because we do not, is something different.
And I have seen something even worse lately: actual calls for hate. The equivalent of *“hey, everyone, go and attack this person”*, simply because that person does not share your position.
No. This is not acceptable.
And, dear friends, declaring yourself anti-Nazi while organising a crowd against somebody, intimidating them and treating them as an enemy who deserves to be attacked means using exactly the kind of methods you claim to oppose.
I do not say this lightly. I come from a family, and from a country, with a very real history of fascism and of the antifascism that immediately followed it. These are not just abstract words to me.
Hate is not tolerated, at any level, inside or outside the Cafe. The same is true for threats, intimidation and aggression. Believing that our cause is right does not make those behaviours more acceptable.
You disagree with someone? Say it. Explain why. Argue against their ideas. Support yours with all the conviction you want. But do not aggressively attack. This is not tolerated.
And expecting everyone else to attack that person too, or considering them somehow complicit because they do not, is something different. And it is not what I want for this community.
On any subject.
Even pineapple on pizza (!!!).
The Fediverse is a non-place, but it is made of real people. Wonderful people, very often. Let’s not turn it into version 2.0 of traditional social media, where every discussion becomes a war and anyone who does not think exactly like us automatically becomes the enemy.
In the last few weeks I have seen people stepping away exactly because of this. On different subjects, people accused of the worst things not because of something they had done, but because they had not said what someone expected them to say. Some of them, for their own wellbeing, simply decided to take a step back.
We all lost something because of that. Nobody gained anything.
So let’s keep supporting what we believe in. Let’s do it with conviction, and with firmness when needed. But let’s discuss ideas without turning people into targets.
From experience, I have learnt that real change also requires discussion, organisation, patience and concrete actions. We can disagree deeply without stopping considering each other as people.
This is the kind of place I want the BSD Cafe to continue to be.
That's how emacs.ch died. Hang in there!
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That's how emacs.ch died. Hang in there!
@michal I know. And I remember how disappointed Louis was.
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Periodic official communication, just to clarify a few things.
The BSD Cafe is an open, inclusive and friendly community. A community of people who try to be *“pro, not against”* and *“supporters, not haters”*: enthusiasts, friends, people who come here to share, to learn, to discuss. Not to hate each other.
This does not mean that we all have to think in the same way. Quite the opposite: it means that we can have different opinions, discuss them, defend them strongly, and question each other’s ideas.
What it does not mean is that it is acceptable to insult, threaten, attack people, or pretend that there can only be one morally acceptable position on every possible subject.
Calling the BSD Cafe a "Nazi Bar" from the outside simply because we do not automatically censor people who have an opinion different from yours is offensive towards the hundreds of people who are part of this community.
People are, of course, free to criticise what happens here. But expecting us to attack, ban or silence someone because you believe they deserve it, and then accusing the whole Cafe because we do not, is something different.
And I have seen something even worse lately: actual calls for hate. The equivalent of *“hey, everyone, go and attack this person”*, simply because that person does not share your position.
No. This is not acceptable.
And, dear friends, declaring yourself anti-Nazi while organising a crowd against somebody, intimidating them and treating them as an enemy who deserves to be attacked means using exactly the kind of methods you claim to oppose.
I do not say this lightly. I come from a family, and from a country, with a very real history of fascism and of the antifascism that immediately followed it. These are not just abstract words to me.
Hate is not tolerated, at any level, inside or outside the Cafe. The same is true for threats, intimidation and aggression. Believing that our cause is right does not make those behaviours more acceptable.
You disagree with someone? Say it. Explain why. Argue against their ideas. Support yours with all the conviction you want. But do not aggressively attack. This is not tolerated.
And expecting everyone else to attack that person too, or considering them somehow complicit because they do not, is something different. And it is not what I want for this community.
On any subject.
Even pineapple on pizza (!!!).
The Fediverse is a non-place, but it is made of real people. Wonderful people, very often. Let’s not turn it into version 2.0 of traditional social media, where every discussion becomes a war and anyone who does not think exactly like us automatically becomes the enemy.
In the last few weeks I have seen people stepping away exactly because of this. On different subjects, people accused of the worst things not because of something they had done, but because they had not said what someone expected them to say. Some of them, for their own wellbeing, simply decided to take a step back.
We all lost something because of that. Nobody gained anything.
So let’s keep supporting what we believe in. Let’s do it with conviction, and with firmness when needed. But let’s discuss ideas without turning people into targets.
From experience, I have learnt that real change also requires discussion, organisation, patience and concrete actions. We can disagree deeply without stopping considering each other as people.
This is the kind of place I want the BSD Cafe to continue to be.
Well, I am one of those who took a time off, not due to Nazi bar problem, but constant AI dramas. Of course it is not absolutely the same story, but everyone has limited mental resilience. I would wish that we all be more listening/reading than talking/writing, of course in terms of any discussion.
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@andi @benedikt_lauenburg Yes! As long as we let malicious actors walk among us and allow them to play everyone who isn't useful to them against each other, this is a real concern.
-
Periodic official communication, just to clarify a few things.
The BSD Cafe is an open, inclusive and friendly community. A community of people who try to be *“pro, not against”* and *“supporters, not haters”*: enthusiasts, friends, people who come here to share, to learn, to discuss. Not to hate each other.
This does not mean that we all have to think in the same way. Quite the opposite: it means that we can have different opinions, discuss them, defend them strongly, and question each other’s ideas.
What it does not mean is that it is acceptable to insult, threaten, attack people, or pretend that there can only be one morally acceptable position on every possible subject.
Calling the BSD Cafe a "Nazi Bar" from the outside simply because we do not automatically censor people who have an opinion different from yours is offensive towards the hundreds of people who are part of this community.
People are, of course, free to criticise what happens here. But expecting us to attack, ban or silence someone because you believe they deserve it, and then accusing the whole Cafe because we do not, is something different.
And I have seen something even worse lately: actual calls for hate. The equivalent of *“hey, everyone, go and attack this person”*, simply because that person does not share your position.
No. This is not acceptable.
And, dear friends, declaring yourself anti-Nazi while organising a crowd against somebody, intimidating them and treating them as an enemy who deserves to be attacked means using exactly the kind of methods you claim to oppose.
I do not say this lightly. I come from a family, and from a country, with a very real history of fascism and of the antifascism that immediately followed it. These are not just abstract words to me.
Hate is not tolerated, at any level, inside or outside the Cafe. The same is true for threats, intimidation and aggression. Believing that our cause is right does not make those behaviours more acceptable.
You disagree with someone? Say it. Explain why. Argue against their ideas. Support yours with all the conviction you want. But do not aggressively attack. This is not tolerated.
And expecting everyone else to attack that person too, or considering them somehow complicit because they do not, is something different. And it is not what I want for this community.
On any subject.
Even pineapple on pizza (!!!).
The Fediverse is a non-place, but it is made of real people. Wonderful people, very often. Let’s not turn it into version 2.0 of traditional social media, where every discussion becomes a war and anyone who does not think exactly like us automatically becomes the enemy.
In the last few weeks I have seen people stepping away exactly because of this. On different subjects, people accused of the worst things not because of something they had done, but because they had not said what someone expected them to say. Some of them, for their own wellbeing, simply decided to take a step back.
We all lost something because of that. Nobody gained anything.
So let’s keep supporting what we believe in. Let’s do it with conviction, and with firmness when needed. But let’s discuss ideas without turning people into targets.
From experience, I have learnt that real change also requires discussion, organisation, patience and concrete actions. We can disagree deeply without stopping considering each other as people.
This is the kind of place I want the BSD Cafe to continue to be.
@stefano
And that's how I closed my LittleFedi account. Later, I'll tell you about my experience with these things. -
Well, I am one of those who took a time off, not due to Nazi bar problem, but constant AI dramas. Of course it is not absolutely the same story, but everyone has limited mental resilience. I would wish that we all be more listening/reading than talking/writing, of course in terms of any discussion.
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It is not easy to avoid this topic in full. The hardest part is that other topics are "AI-soaked". You can follow other people because they do good things (programming, making art and other), but they might also touch AI in any way. Is it worth then to not follow them?
CC: @stefano@bsd.cafe
-
Periodic official communication, just to clarify a few things.
The BSD Cafe is an open, inclusive and friendly community. A community of people who try to be *“pro, not against”* and *“supporters, not haters”*: enthusiasts, friends, people who come here to share, to learn, to discuss. Not to hate each other.
This does not mean that we all have to think in the same way. Quite the opposite: it means that we can have different opinions, discuss them, defend them strongly, and question each other’s ideas.
What it does not mean is that it is acceptable to insult, threaten, attack people, or pretend that there can only be one morally acceptable position on every possible subject.
Calling the BSD Cafe a "Nazi Bar" from the outside simply because we do not automatically censor people who have an opinion different from yours is offensive towards the hundreds of people who are part of this community.
People are, of course, free to criticise what happens here. But expecting us to attack, ban or silence someone because you believe they deserve it, and then accusing the whole Cafe because we do not, is something different.
And I have seen something even worse lately: actual calls for hate. The equivalent of *“hey, everyone, go and attack this person”*, simply because that person does not share your position.
No. This is not acceptable.
And, dear friends, declaring yourself anti-Nazi while organising a crowd against somebody, intimidating them and treating them as an enemy who deserves to be attacked means using exactly the kind of methods you claim to oppose.
I do not say this lightly. I come from a family, and from a country, with a very real history of fascism and of the antifascism that immediately followed it. These are not just abstract words to me.
Hate is not tolerated, at any level, inside or outside the Cafe. The same is true for threats, intimidation and aggression. Believing that our cause is right does not make those behaviours more acceptable.
You disagree with someone? Say it. Explain why. Argue against their ideas. Support yours with all the conviction you want. But do not aggressively attack. This is not tolerated.
And expecting everyone else to attack that person too, or considering them somehow complicit because they do not, is something different. And it is not what I want for this community.
On any subject.
Even pineapple on pizza (!!!).
The Fediverse is a non-place, but it is made of real people. Wonderful people, very often. Let’s not turn it into version 2.0 of traditional social media, where every discussion becomes a war and anyone who does not think exactly like us automatically becomes the enemy.
In the last few weeks I have seen people stepping away exactly because of this. On different subjects, people accused of the worst things not because of something they had done, but because they had not said what someone expected them to say. Some of them, for their own wellbeing, simply decided to take a step back.
We all lost something because of that. Nobody gained anything.
So let’s keep supporting what we believe in. Let’s do it with conviction, and with firmness when needed. But let’s discuss ideas without turning people into targets.
From experience, I have learnt that real change also requires discussion, organisation, patience and concrete actions. We can disagree deeply without stopping considering each other as people.
This is the kind of place I want the BSD Cafe to continue to be.
@stefano
Stefano, I don't know what prompted this, but thanks for speaking up and making your position clear. I absolutely agree with what you're saying here (and in the responses to this post).I trust your instinct to be able to distinguish between people who mean well but have their own opiníons on things, even if these opinions are maybe not exactly in line with what seems to be the consensus amongst others on the fediverse, and genuinely bad actors whose goal is to spread hate and promote dangerous ideologies like fascism.
And bringing up this "Nazi bar" analogy in my opinion says more about the person using it than the place they're talking about. I've seen people who pride themselves about stepping up against the "Nazi bar" happily orchestrate hate mobs against people who merely dared to disagree with them on a minor issue...
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