I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky
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@alter_kaker @mcc hmm, apparently not that much knowledge is required, and the cost dropped significantly, I still don't trust any of it though
@esoteric_programmer so this is all within my ability. But what about the rest of the stack? To my understanding, the PDS and view? As @mcc says things have to change in a social level but the first step is more nodes...
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I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
My expectation was it was unlikely we'd ever see this happen because "federation" on ATProto means basically reproducing the entirety of the Bluesky software stack. In old Big Data terms, on ActivityPub your instance is a "horizontal shard" of the network; ATProto forces full DB replicas only.
Still, we're seeing movement on this front, which I'd split into two categories:
1. Your fault (you reading this)
2. Aaron Rodericks's faultI'm mainly surprised that the facade fell so early with Bluesky. I expected atleast another few years before something happened to expose the reality.
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because #bluesky operates on the #cryptoBro credo (since bluesky is run by crypto bros)
in #crypto, the con is:
1. promise a lot
2. don't deliver
3. but nevertheless generate adoring devotion off of the promisethis works like gangbusters
because people want to believe. they even get defensive and angry when you point out promise vs reality
it's a hack of human psychology
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I (me, mcc) never trusted Bluesky, so I've been self-hosting my own PDS from the start. I've been happily using blacksky.community for the last month (since Bluesky started gating access to their appview/web frontend on clicking to agree to a new TOS that seemed to me sketchy). Hypothetically, "Gertrude" could do the same. She can join Northsky PDS, make posts through Zeppelin, and Bluesky blocks her but Blacksky just fetches the posts from her PDS for me, and I get to read them.
Right? (2/3)
@mcc Which PDS implementation are you self hosting with?
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I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
My expectation was it was unlikely we'd ever see this happen because "federation" on ATProto means basically reproducing the entirety of the Bluesky software stack. In old Big Data terms, on ActivityPub your instance is a "horizontal shard" of the network; ATProto forces full DB replicas only.
Still, we're seeing movement on this front, which I'd split into two categories:
1. Your fault (you reading this)
2. Aaron Rodericks's fault@mcc There's also https://plc.directory/, the
did:plc:database, also run by Bluesky.("
plc" stands for "placeholder", because they aspire to figure out something blockchain decentralized later.)I think Bluesky can inconvenience people at best, or hijack their accounts at worst, especially if they were using a Bluesky PDS and Bluesky has all the keys. But I don't know/remember the exact implications.
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@alter_kaker @mcc hmm, apparently not that much knowledge is required, and the cost dropped significantly, I still don't trust any of it though
@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc This is curious to me, because it looks like he's running a relay as an actual relay, just passing along data, which would explain why it's relatively low-cost. But the Relay described by the Bluesky white paper was more than just a relay— it was a replacement (or rebrand) for the earlier Big Data Server that was supposed to not only pass data, but also store and index it all for the network. And I can't tell if those other, more expensive functions got offloaded to other services, or if there are two types of relays in the infrastructure, or something else.
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If you sign up with https://blacksky.community you get:
- Blacksky's "appview"/web frontend
- Optionally, Blacksky's PDS
- Blacksky's moderation layer (and you can optionally enable Bluesky's too)Almost-complete independence! What I'm not clear on is to whether, or to what degree Blacksky relies on Bluesky's "relay":
@mcc (if this is too off topic just ignore!)
I noticed that Blacksky asks for a birth date when you make a new account.
Bluesky didn't use to ask. No idea what they do now, but I would not have made an account with them if they required a birth date.
I'm sure people make up dates but I was still surprised. I'm guessing this is related to age verification laws? I don't know much about them.
Have any Fediverse servers started to ask for a birth date when a new account is created?
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@mcc Which PDS implementation are you self hosting with?
@fabrice the official one. It seems fine.
Is there a reason to pick another?
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@mcc I don't know :) Maybe the Rust one from blacksky is less resource intensive?
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@mcc (if this is too off topic just ignore!)
I noticed that Blacksky asks for a birth date when you make a new account.
Bluesky didn't use to ask. No idea what they do now, but I would not have made an account with them if they required a birth date.
I'm sure people make up dates but I was still surprised. I'm guessing this is related to age verification laws? I don't know much about them.
Have any Fediverse servers started to ask for a birth date when a new account is created?
@ahimsa_pdx I don't know. I didn't make an account, apparently.
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@mcc There's also https://plc.directory/, the
did:plc:database, also run by Bluesky.("
plc" stands for "placeholder", because they aspire to figure out something blockchain decentralized later.)I think Bluesky can inconvenience people at best, or hijack their accounts at worst, especially if they were using a Bluesky PDS and Bluesky has all the keys. But I don't know/remember the exact implications.
@mnordhoff yes, the plc is another really frustrating thing
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@mcc I don't know :) Maybe the Rust one from blacksky is less resource intensive?
@fabrice yeah, I dunno. I haven't noticed a load problem from the typescript implementation. I don't have a very data oriented operation over here tho
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And that's why I say, TLDR:
- I am legitimately excited about the work being done by Blacksky Algorithms! I am using their frontend and happy with it.
- Northsky is an interesting development to watch
- If you're on a Bluesky PDS, I recommend migrating off with one of these tools https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:ii5jchdzlmcojjw4dqczcgkh/post/3lyt6t6qfa22u
- Everything Sucks. A LOT of things would have to change at a social level for *any* entity other than Bluesky to have power or independence in the ATP ecosystem. I still don't trust Bluesky.
As an update since posting the above thread I have received replies from two people, one saying I am underestimating the level of stack coverage Blacksky has, another saying I am overestimating it. Also a "AppView" and "Client" are different. Sorry.
The stack is just so tall! There are *so many* layers in this protocol's model. And it seems like every single one of them is an opportunity to introduce censorship
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I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
My expectation was it was unlikely we'd ever see this happen because "federation" on ATProto means basically reproducing the entirety of the Bluesky software stack. In old Big Data terms, on ActivityPub your instance is a "horizontal shard" of the network; ATProto forces full DB replicas only.
Still, we're seeing movement on this front, which I'd split into two categories:
1. Your fault (you reading this)
2. Aaron Rodericks's fault@mcc Look, Bluesky has some nice advantages over the fediverse, mainly that it's not confusing at all because it gets to the point of just being old Twitter.
Federation is not their strong point and will never be, whether we like it or not, if you want federation and multiple communities, Activitypub is by far the best option.
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@esoteric_programmer so this is all within my ability. But what about the rest of the stack? To my understanding, the PDS and view? As @mcc says things have to change in a social level but the first step is more nodes...
@mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer I think the key point is: "Every Bluesky replica is, probably without realizing it, making a bet that Bluesky has already plateaued." This is a worthwhile experiment, as long as you can pull the plug at a moment's notice and lose nothing. -
@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc This is curious to me, because it looks like he's running a relay as an actual relay, just passing along data, which would explain why it's relatively low-cost. But the Relay described by the Bluesky white paper was more than just a relay— it was a replacement (or rebrand) for the earlier Big Data Server that was supposed to not only pass data, but also store and index it all for the network. And I can't tell if those other, more expensive functions got offloaded to other services, or if there are two types of relays in the infrastructure, or something else.
@lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer My understanding is that relays have a "replay since timestamp X" functionality, so that consumers that go down for a while can get back up and running. Originally relays by definition had to support any X back to the beginning of time, leading to absurd storage costs. Today they are allowed to have a much shorter window, meaning in effect the storage cost is insignificant and it's the network cost that dominates. Unless I'm mistaken, the canonical store of a user's posting history is and always was the PDS. -
@alter_kaker I'm not the person to ask. I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord (yes, it's really named that) and ask there.
Blacksky has all their software on GitHub (they are using a mix of original Bluesky software and their own stuff) but not instructions on how to deploy it as a whole stack.
@mcc @alter_kaker "I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord"
But... why are they not using... no OK never mind.
I'm so glad for this thread! I've had a bazillion questions about AT but nowhere to ask them. I really think there should be an "other protocols" channel on activitypub.space though. This is not "Technical discussion about ActivityPub-related topics" and sooner or later someone's gonna get angry at us.
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And that's why I say, TLDR:
- I am legitimately excited about the work being done by Blacksky Algorithms! I am using their frontend and happy with it.
- Northsky is an interesting development to watch
- If you're on a Bluesky PDS, I recommend migrating off with one of these tools https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:ii5jchdzlmcojjw4dqczcgkh/post/3lyt6t6qfa22u
- Everything Sucks. A LOT of things would have to change at a social level for *any* entity other than Bluesky to have power or independence in the ATP ecosystem. I still don't trust Bluesky.
@mcc what exactly is the benefit of migrating to a non bluesky PDS? I understand being on an entirely different vertical stack like Blacksky or Northsky but what does being on a PDS give you? Aren't you still (almost) entirely at bluesky's mercy?
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@mcc @alter_kaker "I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord"
But... why are they not using... no OK never mind.
I'm so glad for this thread! I've had a bazillion questions about AT but nowhere to ask them. I really think there should be an "other protocols" channel on activitypub.space though. This is not "Technical discussion about ActivityPub-related topics" and sooner or later someone's gonna get angry at us.
mat@friendica.exon.name I am not opposed to a category discussing alternatives protocols.
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Tech people talk about tech too much.
I really really REALLY want to use all the awesome privacy friendly FOSS (and similar) stuff, but I am not a techie person! I don't know how to program, nor do I want to.
And every SINGLE time I try to find out even what thing (OS, program, app, service, etc) to use, let alone how, and I search for it... I get techie-focused answers.
It's complete gibberish to me! Absolutely useless. It makes me feel actively unwelcome even though I really care about using alternatives to Windows, Meta, X and other dystopic nonsense.
For example: I'm like "How do I start a non-enshittified group chat to talk about a thing?" and all the results are technobabble to me. I don't even know if the words they use are supposed to be normal english words or if they refer to orgs or groups or apps or some weird coding wizardry.
I am so lost, every single time.
I stick with it though. But like. I wonder if the tech people realise that this is happening???? Because they probably understand what they're talking about. And they seem to not realise that not everyone does.
I'm not trying to blame or shame anyone or even complaining as such (a little bit complaining, ngl), mostly just giving feedback. This is not an issue with a singe thing but with ALL of it as a whole! Including #GNU #Linux the #Fediverse #Matrix and most #FOSS apps.
My sincere wish: Give non-techie people an EASY TO FIND and easy to read and easy to understand and easy to implement guide about how to use the things as an alternative to using big corporation services, ie, "I just want it to work" and not have to worry about the technical side of things. (examples in thread)
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Week in Fediverse 2025-10-31
Servers
- Mitra v4.12.0
- Manyfold v0.127.0
- snac v2.84
- Ktistec v3.1.2
- Misskey v2025.10.2
- Mastodon 4.5 for Developers
- Atlas: A social mapping app that lets you post geolocated notes on the FediverseClients
- Pachli v3.1.0
- Mastodon for iOS v2025.07
- NeoDB You v1.0.5
- Thunder v0.8.0Tools and Plugins
- feed2fedi v3.3.0
- Poduptime v5.5.6For developers
- NGI0 Progress report #0 (GoActivityPub)
Articles
- Fediverse instances on weird hardware, networks and operating systems
- There is One Fediverse. There are a Million Pickleball Courts.
- A Mastodon Migration From Bluesky Would Be Different
- How *you* (librarians and those working in publishing, law, and government) should use ActivityPub and Why
- Fediverse Report – #141-----
#WeekInFediverse #Fediverse #ActivityPub
Previous edition: https://mitra.social/objects/019a17cf-e370-2278-c196-713c73e5cdea
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I've gone live!
Fireside Fedi - Episode 52 - Kit Aultman - Owncast Newsletter, Roller Derby Ref
#owncast #streaming #interview #fediverse #fedi #people #show #firesidefedi #FsF
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YOU KNOW WHAT IS SCARY, BEING DISABLED AND EXISTING IN POVERTY!
PEOPLE I NEED HELP, AND I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR COMPASSION AND SUPPORT
I Would Like To Thank You In Advance For Your Compassion And Generous Contribution Today!
This #disabled man existing in #poverty has no means to take care of himself, it sure would be nice if today everyone on the #fediverse could help me raise at the least my current need of $3,693, I am begging for help so that I can live, food, rent, clothing, personal hygiene ect, Every dollar matters. Every share matters. Every act of compassion matters.
• CashApp: $woctxphotog
• PayPal: paypal.com/donate?campaign_id=…#MutualAid, #Disabled, #Poverty, #Help, #Survival, #Compassion, #Food, #Groceries, #Hygiene, #Dignity,
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"“I’m going back to the #Fediverse. Back to #Mastodon. To the nerds, the hobbyists, the idealists. The people who don’t talk about reach, but about relevance. To those who understand that decentralization isn’t nostalgic, it’s the future. That digital sovereignty isn’t a gimmick, it’s a survival strategy.
Yes, the Fediverse is sometimes clunky, nerdy, uncomfortable. But it belongs to us" — @pallenberg, quoted (and translated) by @hildabast
https://absolutelymaybe.plos.org/2025/10/30/a-mastodon-migration-from-bluesky-would-be-different/
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not being a developer at all, I tried with termux, but it could be that android is too limited to do this.
Though I think it could be a great hack
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One thing at a time.
I'm interested into feasibility, I tried to compile both snac2 and gts with some issues, so i want to see if someone did it, even on a rooted one.But anyway
- you can use a higher >1024 port so no need for root
- a dyndns client for android, with a free dyndns accountmy main instance can change ip or go down for hours, though way less frequently than a mobile phone on mobile data.
a dyndns client will point lucaphone.dyndns.org to my mobile ip:8443 with a quick ttl (matter of 5 minutes time)
all other fediverse servers keep trying for days to sent stuff to lucaphone.dynsdns.org until they resolve the current ip / a running server / with proper keys
