Right, fediverse, let me know what you think.
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@aral
Tbh the way the question is framed (only two options) made me think too fast. Was it a social experiment ?
On second thought, it would not be OK to allow mods to delete toots. Account ban would be appropriate in a violation case, as long as the banned person still can reach out to the mods and also transfer their account to another instance.@Teratogenese Not a social experiment, just an early morning post and severe word limit on poll answers :)
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(Personally, option 1 feels like a violation to me – content belongs to the author not to the host and moderators should no more be deleting other people’s posts than they should be editing them – while option 2 – especially combined with a limit and/or suspension or the threat thereof – is well within the rights of the host regardless of whether I agree with the actual moderation decision itself. Option 1 feels like censorship while option 2 – while it could easily constitute censorship – feels more like moderation to me.)
@aral I voted "delete" before I read this and would revise my opinion to "should be able to hide permanently from everyone except the author"
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(Personally, option 1 feels like a violation to me – content belongs to the author not to the host and moderators should no more be deleting other people’s posts than they should be editing them – while option 2 – especially combined with a limit and/or suspension or the threat thereof – is well within the rights of the host regardless of whether I agree with the actual moderation decision itself. Option 1 feels like censorship while option 2 – while it could easily constitute censorship – feels more like moderation to me.)
@aral I think that if there only would be a single instance in a social media (not the fediverse design) the censorship thing would make a solid argument. But from my experience, people who post things in a well moderated instance that is required to be deleted (such as insults, offenses, or anything against the accepted rules when signing up) usually refuse to delete themselves and are more likely to keep the harassment, even stronger.
If someone is forced into an specific instance and (...)
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undefined oblomov@sociale.network ha condiviso questa discussione
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@aral I think that if there only would be a single instance in a social media (not the fediverse design) the censorship thing would make a solid argument. But from my experience, people who post things in a well moderated instance that is required to be deleted (such as insults, offenses, or anything against the accepted rules when signing up) usually refuse to delete themselves and are more likely to keep the harassment, even stronger.
If someone is forced into an specific instance and (...)
@aral their posts are deleted without reason or warning that sounds like censorship. But in a place where you can choose multiple instances and you agree on terms on those instances, I see no reason to believe deleting posts is censorship. You can always repost or keep talking in any other instance.
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@aral their posts are deleted without reason or warning that sounds like censorship. But in a place where you can choose multiple instances and you agree on terms on those instances, I see no reason to believe deleting posts is censorship. You can always repost or keep talking in any other instance.
@aral bonus: I like to think the fediverse like a radio. No one will force your voice out, at most you just don't fit in a channel.
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Right, fediverse, let me know what you think. Long-form comments also welcome.
Mastodon instance moderators should…
@aral I don't exactly know what Mastodon moderators can do, but instance admins at least can ban people and delete accounts, and to me, deleting posts goes in the same ballpark. If you're up to the point where someone does something against the instance rules, in a way so severe you would want to delete the post, and won't change it themself, that person probably has nothing to do on your instance.
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@aral bonus: I like to think the fediverse like a radio. No one will force your voice out, at most you just don't fit in a channel.
@alien The problem is that not all channels are created equal.
If mastodon.social blocks my instance of one, they prevent ~750,000 people from following me and seeing my posts.
If I block mastodon.social, I prevent ~750,000 people from following me and seeing my posts.
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Right, fediverse, let me know what you think. Long-form comments also welcome.
Mastodon instance moderators should…
@aral Option 2 would not, for example, allow a moderator to remove CSAM.
There’s a need for moderators to have access to the nuclear option, but there also need to be a range of less drastic responses available, to allow building workable policies around that choice.
But they must have access to a “delete the post (other than forensic retention) and salt the earth” option.
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@aral I voted "delete" before I read this and would revise my opinion to "should be able to hide permanently from everyone except the author"
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@alien The problem is that not all channels are created equal.
If mastodon.social blocks my instance of one, they prevent ~750,000 people from following me and seeing my posts.
If I block mastodon.social, I prevent ~750,000 people from following me and seeing my posts.
@aral but you asked about posts, not instances, right? I assumed you were asking about deleting posts on moderated instances, if that's not the question I just didn't understood, sorry for that
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Actually, here’s what I really think is lacking: a hide post moderation option in Mastodon.
Instead of deleting posts, moderators should be able to hide posts.
Posts that are hidden by moderators should keep their place in the timeline but state publicly that they were hidden by moderators.
(Servers other than the originating server must treat hidden posts as otherwise deleted and remove their local cache of the content. This is no different to the existing social contact for federated deletes.)
The server should also clearly communicate to the person in question (this can be automated) that their post has been hidden and that they can challenge the decision via regular channels by filing an appeal. (And, if they don’t like the moderation, they can move to a different server, etc., as per usual.)
That would feel much better to me than deleting a post outright and it can be combined with a moderation policy that promises not to delete or edit other people’s posts.
It would also allow for an appeal process and the possible reinstatement of a post should it be found that a moderation error has occurred.
#mastodon #moderation #fediverse #postDeletion #postHiding #authorship #censorship #ownership
@aral I'm leaning towards what you've described here.
Deletion of the content but not the existence of the post. If I go to your profile it should be representative of your posts. A version of your profile sans the posts my instance chooses to moderate just misrepresents you and the conversations you're in.
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@aral I'm leaning towards what you've described here.
Deletion of the content but not the existence of the post. If I go to your profile it should be representative of your posts. A version of your profile sans the posts my instance chooses to moderate just misrepresents you and the conversations you're in.
@aral I also think it'd make sense if moderators could add content warnings to posts. Minor difference in instance rules: content warning. Against instance rules but generally acceptable elsewhere: hiding. Then suspension being last resort.
I thought maybe this already existed though it sounds like it's been up for discussion for awhile:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/1307 -
Actually, here’s what I really think is lacking: a hide post moderation option in Mastodon.
Instead of deleting posts, moderators should be able to hide posts.
Posts that are hidden by moderators should keep their place in the timeline but state publicly that they were hidden by moderators.
(Servers other than the originating server must treat hidden posts as otherwise deleted and remove their local cache of the content. This is no different to the existing social contact for federated deletes.)
The server should also clearly communicate to the person in question (this can be automated) that their post has been hidden and that they can challenge the decision via regular channels by filing an appeal. (And, if they don’t like the moderation, they can move to a different server, etc., as per usual.)
That would feel much better to me than deleting a post outright and it can be combined with a moderation policy that promises not to delete or edit other people’s posts.
It would also allow for an appeal process and the possible reinstatement of a post should it be found that a moderation error has occurred.
#mastodon #moderation #fediverse #postDeletion #postHiding #authorship #censorship #ownership
@aral @staff @haubles I'm not sure which impact actually hits worse - having one of your post deleted, or your account suspended for the time being. If you are only going to reinstate the account once the author deleted their post, then the result is the same, just with extra steps.
Given the federated nature of this network, I'm rather relaxed about free speech/censoring issues.
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Actually, here’s what I really think is lacking: a hide post moderation option in Mastodon.
Instead of deleting posts, moderators should be able to hide posts.
Posts that are hidden by moderators should keep their place in the timeline but state publicly that they were hidden by moderators.
(Servers other than the originating server must treat hidden posts as otherwise deleted and remove their local cache of the content. This is no different to the existing social contact for federated deletes.)
The server should also clearly communicate to the person in question (this can be automated) that their post has been hidden and that they can challenge the decision via regular channels by filing an appeal. (And, if they don’t like the moderation, they can move to a different server, etc., as per usual.)
That would feel much better to me than deleting a post outright and it can be combined with a moderation policy that promises not to delete or edit other people’s posts.
It would also allow for an appeal process and the possible reinstatement of a post should it be found that a moderation error has occurred.
#mastodon #moderation #fediverse #postDeletion #postHiding #authorship #censorship #ownership
I still think moderators should have the nuclear option of deleting a post.
I have, occasionally, had to report transphobic abuse from throwaway accounts in the hope that a moderator will delete it before the intended target sees it. A "message hidden" notification would give the target a pretty strong indication that she'd been abused. I'd prefer it if she didn't even know.
(Yes, she: in my limited experience, it's always been women who were on the receiving end of this garbage.)
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@aral I voted "delete" before I read this and would revise my opinion to "should be able to hide permanently from everyone except the author"
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@aral I'm leaning towards what you've described here.
Deletion of the content but not the existence of the post. If I go to your profile it should be representative of your posts. A version of your profile sans the posts my instance chooses to moderate just misrepresents you and the conversations you're in.
@BenjaminNelan @aral People who follow a person should be treated differently. If you want that sort of content, you probably want the posts the moderator has problems with. Sine there's a server's public timeline, you can curate that with way more rigor than the individual timeline.
Most complaints are “I don't like what you say”, and the people who don't like what someone else says often try to create heated exchange first and then file complaint on the heat they caused themselves. Therefore, if you get a complaint, look at the exchange before, and if it's such a case, hide the messages that created the heat.
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Right, fediverse, let me know what you think. Long-form comments also welcome.
Mastodon instance moderators should…
@aral Suspend the account: yes. Delete the post: no.
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Right, fediverse, let me know what you think. Long-form comments also welcome.
Mastodon instance moderators should…
@aral
Ask people to delete their post with reasons why. If they refuse then delete but there should be more than one moderator. I've seen folks posts that were deleted that didn't seem in anyway problematic -
@aral I, a non-moderator, want the power to delete OTHER people's posts.
I am a good kitty and can be trusted with this power
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(Personally, option 1 feels like a violation to me – content belongs to the author not to the host and moderators should no more be deleting other people’s posts than they should be editing them – while option 2 – especially combined with a limit and/or suspension or the threat thereof – is well within the rights of the host regardless of whether I agree with the actual moderation decision itself. Option 1 feels like censorship while option 2 – while it could easily constitute censorship – feels more like moderation to me.)
@aral Mastodon servers and the moderators are providers of a service. By being on that server you essentially agree to their terms. It is not a public broadcasting service (which never really exists) where you have the right to post anything. Nor does anyone's post automatically have a right to be seen by everyone.
Of course if you don't like the moderation then move or start your own instance.
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