Blacksky has already built their own ATProto stack that's fully independent from Bluesky.
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@katherine_montalto Yeah, the Atmosphere is definitely growing.
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@rolle I guess if the fediverse keeps pushing people away, and ATProto gains wide enough adoption, and it becomes easy to run your whole stack, I might just look into that.
Until then, I'll have to stick with the fediverse, as that's the only truly grassroots option.
I just don't get the whole "fediverse pushing people away" angle, at all. Care to elaborate?
There are millions of users and thousands of servers on the fediverse. All kinds of people, from all over the world. It's not one homogenous mass "pushing people away" or "being unwelcoming". You just couldn't make that happen even if you tried.
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I just don't get the whole "fediverse pushing people away" angle, at all. Care to elaborate?
There are millions of users and thousands of servers on the fediverse. All kinds of people, from all over the world. It's not one homogenous mass "pushing people away" or "being unwelcoming". You just couldn't make that happen even if you tried.
@pahoittelemme Are you thinking of millions of inactive users?
https://mastodon-analytics.com
The hostility, particularly towards Black people has been well documented.
https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/
https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
Every few days there is a woman talking about the sexism on here. Seems really hard to miss this stuff.
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Blacksky has already built their own ATProto stack that's fully independent from Bluesky.
Now Eurosky is making progress as they roll out their own PDS.
I see more independent infrastructure springing up on https://atp.fyi/network, including AppViews.
For anyone hoping that we'll get another wave of people coming to the fediverse once Bluesky folds/enshittifies, that might not necessarily be the case as people will have more options to stay in the Atmosphere.
@stefan mfrs will literally develop a whole-ass social networking stack for their specific community before they move to a fedi service. 🤦♀️
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@pahoittelemme Are you thinking of millions of inactive users?
https://mastodon-analytics.com
The hostility, particularly towards Black people has been well documented.
https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/
https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
Every few days there is a woman talking about the sexism on here. Seems really hard to miss this stuff.
We're probably speaking past each other.
The fediverse still isn't some homogenous blob where what you said applies universally. It's all down to individual instances and their moderators.
Granted, the largest instances probably have the worst time dealing with moderation.
But I have a hard time seeing @rolle walk past bad behaviour on the instance he runs, ditto for the org that runs my instance.
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We're probably speaking past each other.
The fediverse still isn't some homogenous blob where what you said applies universally. It's all down to individual instances and their moderators.
Granted, the largest instances probably have the worst time dealing with moderation.
But I have a hard time seeing @rolle walk past bad behaviour on the instance he runs, ditto for the org that runs my instance.
@pahoittelemme A lot of the problematic behavior is insidious, though.
Asking Black people to prove there is racism. Asking women to "just block" every single individual harasser. Telling people to "just" stop using Big Tech products. To add alt text. Not acknowledging some of the good things they're already doing and demanding perfection. Tone policing. Demanding very specific use of CWs.
All of these people are just trying to be helpful, right? Not really breaking any "rules".
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@pahoittelemme A lot of the problematic behavior is insidious, though.
Asking Black people to prove there is racism. Asking women to "just block" every single individual harasser. Telling people to "just" stop using Big Tech products. To add alt text. Not acknowledging some of the good things they're already doing and demanding perfection. Tone policing. Demanding very specific use of CWs.
All of these people are just trying to be helpful, right? Not really breaking any "rules".
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Yes, Blacksky does indeed host PDSs that are open to everyone! You can sign up there for a new account, or migrate an existing account. https://docs.blacksky.community/migrating-to-blacksky-pds-complete-guide has the details.
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@pahoittelemme Kind of a moot point. Bluesky has people. Twitter has people. So why do so few people want to be here?
You can't just attribute this to bad UX. People on Bluesky complain about not being able to edit posts, create private accounts, blocks being public, all kinds of UX problems.
It's not even an issue of having to pick a server, look at all the people who figured out that part, and now they're gone.
https://mastodon-analytics.com
Some will say that fediverse is "too complicated", but we've seen people install VPNs to get around TikTok bans and age restrictions, and now they're talking about migrating between PDSes and AppViews on Bluesky.
It's the culture here.
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@pahoittelemme Kind of a moot point. Bluesky has people. Twitter has people. So why do so few people want to be here?
You can't just attribute this to bad UX. People on Bluesky complain about not being able to edit posts, create private accounts, blocks being public, all kinds of UX problems.
It's not even an issue of having to pick a server, look at all the people who figured out that part, and now they're gone.
https://mastodon-analytics.com
Some will say that fediverse is "too complicated", but we've seen people install VPNs to get around TikTok bans and age restrictions, and now they're talking about migrating between PDSes and AppViews on Bluesky.
It's the culture here.
@stefan I don't have that grim of a sentiment that Stefan has, I'll always root for the Fediverse. However, he has a point, because in retrospect the whole reason Bluesky's ATProto was born was this:
"The AP community has always been somewhat suspicious of Bluesky, for reasons that are understandable. AP’s community is volunteer driven and the users joined to escape Twitter. So, here we come, a startup funded by Twitter, with strong opinions on how the tech should be done. I’ve heard concerns that we’d “embrace, extend, & extinguish.” I’ve heard concerns that we’d force through changes that people don’t want by dint of being a funded company. You can criticize us for going a different direction but I think it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions above."
https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/255#issuecomment-1287953987
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@stefan I don't have that grim of a sentiment that Stefan has, I'll always root for the Fediverse. However, he has a point, because in retrospect the whole reason Bluesky's ATProto was born was this:
"The AP community has always been somewhat suspicious of Bluesky, for reasons that are understandable. AP’s community is volunteer driven and the users joined to escape Twitter. So, here we come, a startup funded by Twitter, with strong opinions on how the tech should be done. I’ve heard concerns that we’d “embrace, extend, & extinguish.” I’ve heard concerns that we’d force through changes that people don’t want by dint of being a funded company. You can criticize us for going a different direction but I think it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions above."
https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/255#issuecomment-1287953987
Also we know that if you even hint of "forbidden subjects" like using public data unconsensually open to interpretation, Artificial Intelligence, for-profit company stuff, etc. you get easily attacked here.
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Also we know that if you even hint of "forbidden subjects" like using public data unconsensually open to interpretation, Artificial Intelligence, for-profit company stuff, etc. you get easily attacked here.
@stefan I remember a time on the Fediverse when even replying to someone's post was seen as the wrong thing to do. You'd get labeled as a "reply guy". Haven't seen a thing like that in anywhere else. @pahoittelemme
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@stefan I remember a time on the Fediverse when even replying to someone's post was seen as the wrong thing to do. You'd get labeled as a "reply guy". Haven't seen a thing like that in anywhere else. @pahoittelemme
@stefan My feed has been mostly peaceful lately, but Fedi has its own set of problems. It tries so hard to protect its users from harmful things, yet ends up creating its own issues as a result. I guess every social space has its challenges. @pahoittelemme
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Also we know that if you even hint of "forbidden subjects" like using public data unconsensually open to interpretation, Artificial Intelligence, for-profit company stuff, etc. you get easily attacked here.
@rolle Yeah, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of LLMs/GenAI, but people who viciously attack each individual user one by one instead of calling their representative and demanding stricter environmental protection laws and labor laws don't come across as serious people, to say the least.
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@pahoittelemme Kind of a moot point. Bluesky has people. Twitter has people. So why do so few people want to be here?
You can't just attribute this to bad UX. People on Bluesky complain about not being able to edit posts, create private accounts, blocks being public, all kinds of UX problems.
It's not even an issue of having to pick a server, look at all the people who figured out that part, and now they're gone.
https://mastodon-analytics.com
Some will say that fediverse is "too complicated", but we've seen people install VPNs to get around TikTok bans and age restrictions, and now they're talking about migrating between PDSes and AppViews on Bluesky.
It's the culture here.
blacksky exists because many black people didn't like the culture on bluesky either. we have culture problems but everywhere does. fundamentally I think our problem is critical mass. bluesky got that for lots of reasons, but the perception of them as simpler and better search etc might go away as other AT stacks pop up.
[I think our big advantage should be that every piece of writing or AV could be an AP item, but we haven't seen much progress on that yet.]
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@pahoittelemme Kind of a moot point. Bluesky has people. Twitter has people. So why do so few people want to be here?
You can't just attribute this to bad UX. People on Bluesky complain about not being able to edit posts, create private accounts, blocks being public, all kinds of UX problems.
It's not even an issue of having to pick a server, look at all the people who figured out that part, and now they're gone.
https://mastodon-analytics.com
Some will say that fediverse is "too complicated", but we've seen people install VPNs to get around TikTok bans and age restrictions, and now they're talking about migrating between PDSes and AppViews on Bluesky.
It's the culture here.
@stefan @pahoittelemme @rolle it's simple, there aren't enough celebrities and social media influencers on here. People say they want real connection but they want cheap dopamine hits. Most people anyway
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@stefan @pahoittelemme @rolle it's simple, there aren't enough celebrities and social media influencers on here. People say they want real connection but they want cheap dopamine hits. Most people anyway
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Blacksky has already built their own ATProto stack that's fully independent from Bluesky.
Now Eurosky is making progress as they roll out their own PDS.
I see more independent infrastructure springing up on https://atp.fyi/network, including AppViews.
For anyone hoping that we'll get another wave of people coming to the fediverse once Bluesky folds/enshittifies, that might not necessarily be the case as people will have more options to stay in the Atmosphere.
My take is that internet standards should be authored by bodies like the IETF and the W3C. Not by techbros. That's why I'm here.
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@pahoittelemme But Bluesky didn't have celebrities either at one point.
And if they did show up here, people would just drive them away, we've seen that with popular Youtubers, for example. Or anyone who uses social media for work.
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My take is that internet standards should be authored by bodies like the IETF and the W3C. Not by techbros. That's why I'm here.
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