Recommendations for federated CMS alternatives to Wordpress?
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Crossposted from https://kbin.earth/m/fediverse@lemmy.zip/t/2330341
Crossposting to get more input (on the actual issues)
Fedi folks, I turn to you for advice with a bit of a problem. I co-admin an ActivityPub-enabled Wordpress site with 15+ years worth of blog posts and a couple of long podcast series. When WP announced their "vision" to become a CMS for "AI", the collective admin reaction was to get the hell off that boat before it turned to algorithmic shit.
[NB — I realise this isn't an anti-"AI" community, but that part is only the starting premise of our situation here. I'm not getting into discussions with slop herders in the comments]
We're a loose network of nerds discussing the speculative genres, including sci-fi. We've seen this movie, we know how it's going to play out. Trouble is, we're not coders. We can assemble the proverbial IKEA flatpak kit and give it a lick of CSS paint, but we can't be trusted to build furniture we'd want to sit in ourselves.
The crunch points for alternatives are
-
the ability to migrate an old, multi-user WP site without breaking too many canonical URLs and feeds,
-
needing a somewhat familiar backend for most of the non-techie contributors to even post stuff, and
-
the federation bit, which is why I post this to !fediverse first. I am aware that setting up an essentially new fedi instance at the same address as a previous one is disencouraged. I'll be glad to hear how or if this can be avoided while preserving profile and post URLs...
So last month I mined the Mastodon hive mind for existing alternatives to WP with fediverse capabilities, and got a selection of qualified responses. I nixed WriteFreely and Plume early on, because while they are perfectly good, federated blog software, my impression is they lean toward a text focused minimalist layout that would be hard to deviate from, where our current site has a bit more pizzazz.
Going through the alternatives listed below, maybe that's a superficial reason to throw some good options out with the bath water. Either way, I'm presenting you with the most frequent, feasible, and/or interesting offers. I've done some surface research and weighed pros and cons for our use case, but I hope there are people out there who can add their experience to the eventual decision:
ClassicPress
This should be a shoo-in, right? It's basically Wordpress with some newer parts torn out (specifically the Gutenberg block editor), but most of the core architecture remains. Including many, many plug-ins. Plus, they're said to have sworn off any "AI" nonsense. Migration would be relatively easy, and with a little bit of luck nobody would even know the difference.
Except apparently compatibility with the WP-activityPub plugin broke. So that's out of the window.
Ghost
A lot of recommendations for Ghost! I believe it was originally another Wordpress fork, but was completely rewritten early on? Either way, a few things turn me off Ghost as an potential alternative:
-
The insistent "we help you monetize your content" vibe on the project website. That's a personal quibble; our site is just entirely non-commercial for the sake of everybody's well-being. I'm told all of that stuff can be turned off in individual installs, though.
-
Ghost's ActivityPub implementation is reportedly not making great progress despite enthusiastic early announcements? If that's not a deal breaker,
-
the fact that the Ghost devs are relying on agentic LLMs to code the application is. Just nope.
Backdrop CMS/Drupal
From what I'm told, Drupal is a step up the CMS learning curve from Wordpress, but since they're projects that have coexisted for a long time, there are established and tried migration methods from one to the other.
I'm not exactly on top of Drupal's ActivityPub implementation, though. But even if that's in a workable shape, Drupal is trying to pitch itself as "the best AI-powered Open Source CMS in the world". Which, to me, is like saying you only put the sharpest razor blades available in kids' Hallowe'en candy.
One user involved in the Backdrop CMS fork from Drupal 7 made convincing arguments for that over later Drupal versions, so here's hoping they drank the right (ie., federated, not algorithmic) Kool Aid.
Hubzilla
Now, this may be the most exciting but also most challenging alternative. Hubzilla is a fairly advanced, and in some ways mold-breaking Fediverse application. From the same developer who made Friendica and (streams), and, if I understand correctly, based on the same core principles.
In contrast to Wordpress and Drupal, Hubzilla declares itself "a CMS which doesn't use LLM / AI". Can't say I don't appreciate that signalling! And of course the whole package revolves around federation. But wait.
The CMS part may be technically correct, but as far as I can tell making Hubzilla present as a plain blog or website requires some advanced stylesheet finagling — and the application only comes with one official, microblog-esque theme. I haven't found any open projects trying to bridge that visual gap, but will appreciate your tips about them if they exist.
For Hubzilla to be a feasible alternative here, we will also need to be able to migrate existing posts, media, users and comments from Wordpress. Preferably in a way that doesn't mess up permalinks too badly. A quick glance at Hubzilla urls indicate that the entire architecture is very different. I assume concepts like "channels" substitute "authors"(?) but I don't know where we are with WP terms like taxonomies.
So there's a challenge, and I'm hoping others have tried (and hopefully succeeded in) that particular migration... or at least have advice to offer.
Bonus: Bonfire
I'm putting this on the table because I expect somebody is going to suggest it in the comments. Like Hubzilla, Bonfire looks really interesting as a Swiss army knife for the Fediverse: You want to make a blog? Take these modules. A community forum? Try these other ones. It's federated first, and it seems to make good headway toward its goals.
But there is no official CMS flavour is still in development; we have no idea about migration possibilities, and honestly? The more mature Hubzilla will be a challenge, I'm fairly certain this is a step further out of our comfort zone. This is totally an "us" problem, not a Bonfire one.
So, thoughts? Specifically practical advice on Hubzilla and/or/versus Backdrop, which I think are the most realistic avenues right now. But there may be alternatives I just didn't see even though they're right in front of me.
I'm ready to have my mind changed on WriteFreely, or to hear about something completely new to me. Mostly though, I'm hoping for replies that consider the massive history of posts and comments that we look to import into the next generation of our site.
Thanks in advance!
I mean if no single software fits your bill, maybe go for a combination of them? Post your blog posts in a Ghost installation, your podcasts in Castopod and have your community on a NodeBB forum? The Fediverse kinda includes the idea it's all one big network anyway. So you don't have to squeeze everything on a single server and one CMS.
Other than that: Wordpress is open-source. You could also wait for the enshittification to happen. We're fairly sure someone is going to fork it and maybe they'll provide a seemless migration. So if you're patient enough, you might be able to stick with your current setup. Just that you Wordpress will some day have a different name and developer community. These things happen all the time. I'll just switch from Firefox to LibreWolf once I'm unhappy with Mozilla's decisions. Solves the user-facing part of the issues, and there's almost no effort involved.
-
-
Crossposted from https://kbin.earth/m/fediverse@lemmy.zip/t/2330341
Crossposting to get more input (on the actual issues)
Fedi folks, I turn to you for advice with a bit of a problem. I co-admin an ActivityPub-enabled Wordpress site with 15+ years worth of blog posts and a couple of long podcast series. When WP announced their "vision" to become a CMS for "AI", the collective admin reaction was to get the hell off that boat before it turned to algorithmic shit.
[NB — I realise this isn't an anti-"AI" community, but that part is only the starting premise of our situation here. I'm not getting into discussions with slop herders in the comments]
We're a loose network of nerds discussing the speculative genres, including sci-fi. We've seen this movie, we know how it's going to play out. Trouble is, we're not coders. We can assemble the proverbial IKEA flatpak kit and give it a lick of CSS paint, but we can't be trusted to build furniture we'd want to sit in ourselves.
The crunch points for alternatives are
-
the ability to migrate an old, multi-user WP site without breaking too many canonical URLs and feeds,
-
needing a somewhat familiar backend for most of the non-techie contributors to even post stuff, and
-
the federation bit, which is why I post this to !fediverse first. I am aware that setting up an essentially new fedi instance at the same address as a previous one is disencouraged. I'll be glad to hear how or if this can be avoided while preserving profile and post URLs...
So last month I mined the Mastodon hive mind for existing alternatives to WP with fediverse capabilities, and got a selection of qualified responses. I nixed WriteFreely and Plume early on, because while they are perfectly good, federated blog software, my impression is they lean toward a text focused minimalist layout that would be hard to deviate from, where our current site has a bit more pizzazz.
Going through the alternatives listed below, maybe that's a superficial reason to throw some good options out with the bath water. Either way, I'm presenting you with the most frequent, feasible, and/or interesting offers. I've done some surface research and weighed pros and cons for our use case, but I hope there are people out there who can add their experience to the eventual decision:
ClassicPress
This should be a shoo-in, right? It's basically Wordpress with some newer parts torn out (specifically the Gutenberg block editor), but most of the core architecture remains. Including many, many plug-ins. Plus, they're said to have sworn off any "AI" nonsense. Migration would be relatively easy, and with a little bit of luck nobody would even know the difference.
Except apparently compatibility with the WP-activityPub plugin broke. So that's out of the window.
Ghost
A lot of recommendations for Ghost! I believe it was originally another Wordpress fork, but was completely rewritten early on? Either way, a few things turn me off Ghost as an potential alternative:
-
The insistent "we help you monetize your content" vibe on the project website. That's a personal quibble; our site is just entirely non-commercial for the sake of everybody's well-being. I'm told all of that stuff can be turned off in individual installs, though.
-
Ghost's ActivityPub implementation is reportedly not making great progress despite enthusiastic early announcements? If that's not a deal breaker,
-
the fact that the Ghost devs are relying on agentic LLMs to code the application is. Just nope.
Backdrop CMS/Drupal
From what I'm told, Drupal is a step up the CMS learning curve from Wordpress, but since they're projects that have coexisted for a long time, there are established and tried migration methods from one to the other.
I'm not exactly on top of Drupal's ActivityPub implementation, though. But even if that's in a workable shape, Drupal is trying to pitch itself as "the best AI-powered Open Source CMS in the world". Which, to me, is like saying you only put the sharpest razor blades available in kids' Hallowe'en candy.
One user involved in the Backdrop CMS fork from Drupal 7 made convincing arguments for that over later Drupal versions, so here's hoping they drank the right (ie., federated, not algorithmic) Kool Aid.
Hubzilla
Now, this may be the most exciting but also most challenging alternative. Hubzilla is a fairly advanced, and in some ways mold-breaking Fediverse application. From the same developer who made Friendica and (streams), and, if I understand correctly, based on the same core principles.
In contrast to Wordpress and Drupal, Hubzilla declares itself "a CMS which doesn't use LLM / AI". Can't say I don't appreciate that signalling! And of course the whole package revolves around federation. But wait.
The CMS part may be technically correct, but as far as I can tell making Hubzilla present as a plain blog or website requires some advanced stylesheet finagling — and the application only comes with one official, microblog-esque theme. I haven't found any open projects trying to bridge that visual gap, but will appreciate your tips about them if they exist.
For Hubzilla to be a feasible alternative here, we will also need to be able to migrate existing posts, media, users and comments from Wordpress. Preferably in a way that doesn't mess up permalinks too badly. A quick glance at Hubzilla urls indicate that the entire architecture is very different. I assume concepts like "channels" substitute "authors"(?) but I don't know where we are with WP terms like taxonomies.
So there's a challenge, and I'm hoping others have tried (and hopefully succeeded in) that particular migration... or at least have advice to offer.
Bonus: Bonfire
I'm putting this on the table because I expect somebody is going to suggest it in the comments. Like Hubzilla, Bonfire looks really interesting as a Swiss army knife for the Fediverse: You want to make a blog? Take these modules. A community forum? Try these other ones. It's federated first, and it seems to make good headway toward its goals.
But there is no official CMS flavour is still in development; we have no idea about migration possibilities, and honestly? The more mature Hubzilla will be a challenge, I'm fairly certain this is a step further out of our comfort zone. This is totally an "us" problem, not a Bonfire one.
So, thoughts? Specifically practical advice on Hubzilla and/or/versus Backdrop, which I think are the most realistic avenues right now. But there may be alternatives I just didn't see even though they're right in front of me.
I'm ready to have my mind changed on WriteFreely, or to hear about something completely new to me. Mostly though, I'm hoping for replies that consider the massive history of posts and comments that we look to import into the next generation of our site.
Thanks in advance!
Some general thoughts. I have done multiple CMS transfers of large sites involving Wordpress, Drupal and Discourse. No matter what plugin you find that supposedly will do the job, in my experience it is always a PITA that ends up involving a lot of programming. That's why the simplest option would be to stay as close to Wordpress as possible, using a fork for example to fix to the ethical problems you perceive. Otherwise you're almost certainly going to find it's much easier to archive and start afresh, with the compromises that implies.
If you do dump Wordpress, in your position I would go for a database-less static site generator like Hugo. So much simpler and more secure. But that's just my opinion.
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-
Some general thoughts. I have done multiple CMS transfers of large sites involving Wordpress, Drupal and Discourse. No matter what plugin you find that supposedly will do the job, in my experience it is always a PITA that ends up involving a lot of programming. That's why the simplest option would be to stay as close to Wordpress as possible, using a fork for example to fix to the ethical problems you perceive. Otherwise you're almost certainly going to find it's much easier to archive and start afresh, with the compromises that implies.
If you do dump Wordpress, in your position I would go for a database-less static site generator like Hugo. So much simpler and more secure. But that's just my opinion.
I concur. Currently using 11ty for my sites with Directus on top for managing content with a gui.
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Not trying to dissuade you or anything, but out curiousity, how do you imagine WP's pivot to GenAI will affect your installation? Or is it just a case of not wanting to support their developers?
I think switching to the same URLs and a familiar backend is going to be really hard. Since you're not coders, It might perhaps be simpler to make a clean cut and switch to a new CMS and archive/freeze the old site.
Thanks for the suggestions! I realise preserving URLs is perhaps the tallest order here, and that we may have to set up redirection to the new ones.
Failing that, archiving (a static version of) the site could definitely be an option. Considering the long history of the site though, our first choice is continuity over an abrupt break.
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I mean if no single software fits your bill, maybe go for a combination of them? Post your blog posts in a Ghost installation, your podcasts in Castopod and have your community on a NodeBB forum? The Fediverse kinda includes the idea it's all one big network anyway. So you don't have to squeeze everything on a single server and one CMS.
Other than that: Wordpress is open-source. You could also wait for the enshittification to happen. We're fairly sure someone is going to fork it and maybe they'll provide a seemless migration. So if you're patient enough, you might be able to stick with your current setup. Just that you Wordpress will some day have a different name and developer community. These things happen all the time. I'll just switch from Firefox to LibreWolf once I'm unhappy with Mozilla's decisions. Solves the user-facing part of the issues, and there's almost no effort involved.
maybe go for a combination of them
This is a very practical solution... until somebody (I suspect me) has to maintain three or more installs instead of one 🙂 But you're right, this could very well be a way to solve the "one size fits none" conundrum.
As for using a WP fork — the point about the ActivityPub plugin breaking compatibility with ClassicPress makes me wary of this approach. And AFAICT ClassicPress is one of the more reliable WP forks out there? In the long term, I mean.
I'm fine with switching my personal browsers if/when one or the other FF fork turns to the dark side, but I wouldn't want to hop this site between different WP forks the same way...
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Some general thoughts. I have done multiple CMS transfers of large sites involving Wordpress, Drupal and Discourse. No matter what plugin you find that supposedly will do the job, in my experience it is always a PITA that ends up involving a lot of programming. That's why the simplest option would be to stay as close to Wordpress as possible, using a fork for example to fix to the ethical problems you perceive. Otherwise you're almost certainly going to find it's much easier to archive and start afresh, with the compromises that implies.
If you do dump Wordpress, in your position I would go for a database-less static site generator like Hugo. So much simpler and more secure. But that's just my opinion.
Our first priority will be to migrate the site as fluently as possible to whatever CMS we transition to. Archiving it as HTML and starting from scratch with a new platform — that's a last ditch effort, I think.
[Edit: I tried to cover the WP fork subject here]
Hugo as a longterm solution isn't going to float with some of our users, I'm afraid. I can vividly imagine somebody turning the old site into a single "Hello world!" page given that kind of permissions.
We will need strictly limited access for contributors, and a clear, friendly input field for text...
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maybe go for a combination of them
This is a very practical solution... until somebody (I suspect me) has to maintain three or more installs instead of one 🙂 But you're right, this could very well be a way to solve the "one size fits none" conundrum.
As for using a WP fork — the point about the ActivityPub plugin breaking compatibility with ClassicPress makes me wary of this approach. And AFAICT ClassicPress is one of the more reliable WP forks out there? In the long term, I mean.
I'm fine with switching my personal browsers if/when one or the other FF fork turns to the dark side, but I wouldn't want to hop this site between different WP forks the same way...
Yes. I'm not very educated on the Worpress side of things... Kinda necessary, though, to keep compatibility with the Fediverse AND the No-AI people in my opinion. I mean the Fediverse is kind of the place for people to go if they don't want algorithms and bots to dominate the place?!
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Some general thoughts. I have done multiple CMS transfers of large sites involving Wordpress, Drupal and Discourse. No matter what plugin you find that supposedly will do the job, in my experience it is always a PITA that ends up involving a lot of programming. That's why the simplest option would be to stay as close to Wordpress as possible, using a fork for example to fix to the ethical problems you perceive. Otherwise you're almost certainly going to find it's much easier to archive and start afresh, with the compromises that implies.
If you do dump Wordpress, in your position I would go for a database-less static site generator like Hugo. So much simpler and more secure. But that's just my opinion.
No matter what plugin you find that supposedly will do the job, in my experience it is always a PITA that ends up involving a lot of programming.
I had a good experience with jekyll's wordpress->jekyll import tool. But see below.
I would go for a database-less static site generator like Hugo
Graybeard here, so it's probably just braindamage specific to me, but I've found ruby dependency setup and troubleshooting to be extremely frustrating. Hard for me to wrap my head around.
When jekyll is actually dead (right now it is "only mostly dead") I'll change to something that does not require ruby (eleventy?) or just go back to the nineties and do something barebones with gtml or whatever. Already playing with the latter.
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Crossposted from https://kbin.earth/m/fediverse@lemmy.zip/t/2330341
Crossposting to get more input (on the actual issues)
Fedi folks, I turn to you for advice with a bit of a problem. I co-admin an ActivityPub-enabled Wordpress site with 15+ years worth of blog posts and a couple of long podcast series. When WP announced their "vision" to become a CMS for "AI", the collective admin reaction was to get the hell off that boat before it turned to algorithmic shit.
[NB — I realise this isn't an anti-"AI" community, but that part is only the starting premise of our situation here. I'm not getting into discussions with slop herders in the comments]
We're a loose network of nerds discussing the speculative genres, including sci-fi. We've seen this movie, we know how it's going to play out. Trouble is, we're not coders. We can assemble the proverbial IKEA flatpak kit and give it a lick of CSS paint, but we can't be trusted to build furniture we'd want to sit in ourselves.
The crunch points for alternatives are
-
the ability to migrate an old, multi-user WP site without breaking too many canonical URLs and feeds,
-
needing a somewhat familiar backend for most of the non-techie contributors to even post stuff, and
-
the federation bit, which is why I post this to !fediverse first. I am aware that setting up an essentially new fedi instance at the same address as a previous one is disencouraged. I'll be glad to hear how or if this can be avoided while preserving profile and post URLs...
So last month I mined the Mastodon hive mind for existing alternatives to WP with fediverse capabilities, and got a selection of qualified responses. I nixed WriteFreely and Plume early on, because while they are perfectly good, federated blog software, my impression is they lean toward a text focused minimalist layout that would be hard to deviate from, where our current site has a bit more pizzazz.
Going through the alternatives listed below, maybe that's a superficial reason to throw some good options out with the bath water. Either way, I'm presenting you with the most frequent, feasible, and/or interesting offers. I've done some surface research and weighed pros and cons for our use case, but I hope there are people out there who can add their experience to the eventual decision:
ClassicPress
This should be a shoo-in, right? It's basically Wordpress with some newer parts torn out (specifically the Gutenberg block editor), but most of the core architecture remains. Including many, many plug-ins. Plus, they're said to have sworn off any "AI" nonsense. Migration would be relatively easy, and with a little bit of luck nobody would even know the difference.
Except apparently compatibility with the WP-activityPub plugin broke. So that's out of the window.
Ghost
A lot of recommendations for Ghost! I believe it was originally another Wordpress fork, but was completely rewritten early on? Either way, a few things turn me off Ghost as an potential alternative:
-
The insistent "we help you monetize your content" vibe on the project website. That's a personal quibble; our site is just entirely non-commercial for the sake of everybody's well-being. I'm told all of that stuff can be turned off in individual installs, though.
-
Ghost's ActivityPub implementation is reportedly not making great progress despite enthusiastic early announcements? If that's not a deal breaker,
-
the fact that the Ghost devs are relying on agentic LLMs to code the application is. Just nope.
Backdrop CMS/Drupal
From what I'm told, Drupal is a step up the CMS learning curve from Wordpress, but since they're projects that have coexisted for a long time, there are established and tried migration methods from one to the other.
I'm not exactly on top of Drupal's ActivityPub implementation, though. But even if that's in a workable shape, Drupal is trying to pitch itself as "the best AI-powered Open Source CMS in the world". Which, to me, is like saying you only put the sharpest razor blades available in kids' Hallowe'en candy.
One user involved in the Backdrop CMS fork from Drupal 7 made convincing arguments for that over later Drupal versions, so here's hoping they drank the right (ie., federated, not algorithmic) Kool Aid.
Hubzilla
Now, this may be the most exciting but also most challenging alternative. Hubzilla is a fairly advanced, and in some ways mold-breaking Fediverse application. From the same developer who made Friendica and (streams), and, if I understand correctly, based on the same core principles.
In contrast to Wordpress and Drupal, Hubzilla declares itself "a CMS which doesn't use LLM / AI". Can't say I don't appreciate that signalling! And of course the whole package revolves around federation. But wait.
The CMS part may be technically correct, but as far as I can tell making Hubzilla present as a plain blog or website requires some advanced stylesheet finagling — and the application only comes with one official, microblog-esque theme. I haven't found any open projects trying to bridge that visual gap, but will appreciate your tips about them if they exist.
For Hubzilla to be a feasible alternative here, we will also need to be able to migrate existing posts, media, users and comments from Wordpress. Preferably in a way that doesn't mess up permalinks too badly. A quick glance at Hubzilla urls indicate that the entire architecture is very different. I assume concepts like "channels" substitute "authors"(?) but I don't know where we are with WP terms like taxonomies.
So there's a challenge, and I'm hoping others have tried (and hopefully succeeded in) that particular migration... or at least have advice to offer.
Bonus: Bonfire
I'm putting this on the table because I expect somebody is going to suggest it in the comments. Like Hubzilla, Bonfire looks really interesting as a Swiss army knife for the Fediverse: You want to make a blog? Take these modules. A community forum? Try these other ones. It's federated first, and it seems to make good headway toward its goals.
But there is no official CMS flavour is still in development; we have no idea about migration possibilities, and honestly? The more mature Hubzilla will be a challenge, I'm fairly certain this is a step further out of our comfort zone. This is totally an "us" problem, not a Bonfire one.
So, thoughts? Specifically practical advice on Hubzilla and/or/versus Backdrop, which I think are the most realistic avenues right now. But there may be alternatives I just didn't see even though they're right in front of me.
I'm ready to have my mind changed on WriteFreely, or to hear about something completely new to me. Mostly though, I'm hoping for replies that consider the massive history of posts and comments that we look to import into the next generation of our site.
Thanks in advance!
Unless you are on a frantic hurry to make this change, I might be able to help. You'll need to migrate to Wagtail, and I have done some work on integration with Wagtail and the Fediverse via the Django ActivityPub Toolkit. But if you do consider this, you'd have to keep in mind that the ActivityPub side of things would be a ongoing experiment.
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-
I mean if no single software fits your bill, maybe go for a combination of them? Post your blog posts in a Ghost installation, your podcasts in Castopod and have your community on a NodeBB forum? The Fediverse kinda includes the idea it's all one big network anyway. So you don't have to squeeze everything on a single server and one CMS.
Other than that: Wordpress is open-source. You could also wait for the enshittification to happen. We're fairly sure someone is going to fork it and maybe they'll provide a seemless migration. So if you're patient enough, you might be able to stick with your current setup. Just that you Wordpress will some day have a different name and developer community. These things happen all the time. I'll just switch from Firefox to LibreWolf once I'm unhappy with Mozilla's decisions. Solves the user-facing part of the issues, and there's almost no effort involved.
@hendrik@palaver.p3x.de fwiw NodeBB ended up being such a joy to author things in that we switched away from WordPress to NodeBB as our blog. We just blog on our forum.
Now, conflicts of interest are important... I wrote NodeBB, so I am obviously pretty biased :laughing: !
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