You don't have to convince me that AI can generate code.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

You don't have to convince me that AI can generate code. You have to convince me that the code it generates is worth generating -- that the game is worth the proverbial candle, that the results are worthy of the environmental and societal problems caused by AI training and use.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

Yes, I've tried it. I find it maddening to be constantly telling the computer what's wrong with the slop output this time around. Even without all the problems, I just don't see the point.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

Yes, with enough massaging, you can get the model to output reasonable code that compiles and does roughly what you wanted it to do. But you could write the same code in less time with less work just by knowing what the fuck you're doing -- and that's what bothers me most: that people who have no idea what the code does will vibe themselves into a corner out of which they lack the skill to debug, thus wasting even more resources.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

@nickzoic -Werror -Wall should be in there.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

In the hands of an experienced programmer who understands the problem domain, I guess you could use it to have a place to start debugging, but going back and forth with a non-sentient software model about this variable or that procedure does not seem to me to be a productive use of a professional's time.

[dalias@hachyderm.io]

@mos_8502 It's like trying to accept code from a contributor who keeps making a gratuitous wrong change every time they fix the last thing you told them to fix, and trying to slip it past you. Infuriating and pointless when you could just do it faster yourself or reject their proposal entirely.

[dalias@hachyderm.io]

@nickzoic @mos_8502 A million lines of actual code, regardless of where it came from, is a catastrophic failure.

[swelljoe@mas.to]

@mos_8502 I wasn't enthusiastic about AI for coding, but Claude Code with Opus 4.5 is remarkable. I can't really say I'm happy about it, but given a competent operator, it produces quite good, if a little verbose, code that works the first time most of the time. It writes better and more tests than I've found most human coders do, it often includes accessibility markup without being asked (another thing human coders simply don't do), and it documents its work.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

@swelljoe What worries me is the "competent operator". Best case scenario, the model generates perfect code that does exactly what the fuck it should -- and the user who prompted it has no clue how to maintain or debug the code.

[swelljoe@mas.to]

@mos_8502 I was dragged into using it at work, and I've had to accept that I was wrong about how well it works. I still have plenty of reservations about its use. But...it can write good software very, very, fast. And, in an agentic configuration (like Claude Code or whatever other agentic harnesses you wanna use), it can test its own work, verify outputs, etc. It's genuinely astonishing how well it works.

Whether I like it kinda doesn't matter. It works well enough to where it will be used.

[swelljoe@mas.to]

@mos_8502 the vibe-coder answer to that is, "I don't need to understand it, I just ask Claude to maintain it, too." And...I scoffed at that idea in the past. But, it's gotten really good.

I think it's still very dangerous in the hands of non-technical folks. And, I think most of the models are still flailing a lot (the frontier models are all pretty good, but Opus 4.5 is the one that Just Works, but all the lower end models are stupid a lot).

I dunno. The ground shifted beneath my feet.

[mos_8502@studio8502.ca]

@swelljoe My reply to the vibe coder in this scenario is "well, then, what do we need you for? Pack up your desk."

Now, this is not to say I'm 100% dead set against it per se. I would restrict its use to expert-level programmers who understand the problem domain, on the grounds that you need to know the language at a high level and understand the problem if you're going to debug and maintain the code.

[swelljoe@mas.to]

@mos_8502 I think, or maybe merely hope, that having deep expertise and actually understanding all the code being spewed forth at alarming rates (even if I haven't actually read most of it), has long-term value.

But, I don't think I have any choice about using it and staying employed. If I want to keep working in the field I'm in, I'm going to be doing it with AI assistance. That was up in the air until recently...but, the current generation models+agents lay the question to rest.