@glyph Did you quote post something?
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@glyph Good morning. I think your futzing fraction link is broken, just FYI
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The vast majority of LLM usage isn't even going to be voluntary or self-rationalized.
Google is by far the world's most popular search engine, used by literally billions of people per day and Google is busy rolling out their excretable "AI overviews" globally.
The vast majority of "LLM users" couldn't tell you what an LLM even is and are not entering any sort of deliberate decision to engage with an LLM or really thinking about it at all.
They're just going to be searching for something and then reading the thing that is given to them at the top of the results. They are going to be funneled to an LLM when they seek out customer service or technical support or apply for a job or accept the 'assistance' jovially offered to them in their word processor or PDF viewer or right in their operating system.
You can can convince someone to not use ChatGPT perhaps, but I'm really not sure what anyone is going to do about the seemingly universal goal of every technical giant on earth to redefine how we interact with information through the interface of AI.
In a not too distant future it will become very difficult for the average person to know where AI even begins and ends.
@gloriouscow I am just facing AI summaries everywhere and it can't even be turned off. It is really like plastic pollution.
Even from these summaries it is easy to spot the pattern: for example, I sometimes do typo in search prompt and the AI summary works with this typo, generating nonse (while even normal search results try to guess "Did you mean ...?")
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Needless to say, if somebody time traveled back to the 1950s and tried to explain this to the people back then, they would have thought you were crazy...
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@glyph (very tangential, whimsical, not serious) I wonder if there are people who argue with each other for sport but do so in a totally incomprehensible and unhinged way, also for sport.
On second thought, no need to wonder, I've seen them posting it on tumblr a few times โค๏ธ
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@glyph I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Are you still really doubting that these things are useful? I've written so many times about this now, are you dismissing it? I can point you to code that I've written over the last seven days that in terms of complexity and utility, is way beyond what we've been able to push out over Christmas. (eg: https://github.com/mitsuhiko/tankgame which is public)
Like, how can you doubt this? It just boggles my mind.
@mitsuhiko @glyph "I've repeated my claims so often, how can you still doubt them?"
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@glyph Good morning. I think your futzing fraction link is broken, just FYI
@drs1969 a minor technical issue reported by another user and already fixed; it should work now. thanks for letting me know!
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@glyph (very tangential, whimsical, not serious) I wonder if there are people who argue with each other for sport but do so in a totally incomprehensible and unhinged way, also for sport.
On second thought, no need to wonder, I've seen them posting it on tumblr a few times โค๏ธ
@0x2ba22e11 if the Croaker showed up in my replies I would be more inclined to engage without getting upset
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Something I posted the other day which relates to this:
The Friends of Eliza can help you overcome your AI/LLM prompt-query compulsion syndrome.
Endorphins are the hardest to resist. Work together and we can beat this.
The first meeting is in the Chinese Room at 11:00am.
Coffee and Cake will be available ๐โ๏ธ๐ง -
@mitsuhiko I could *easily* accept an argument like "we all have to make decisions under uncertainty and *in my experience*, accounting for subjective distortion as best I can, there has been a big net benefit. we're going to have to agree to disagree until someone does a more comprehensive study; I'll gather more data on my own use in the meanwhile"
but your insistence that I recognize these anecdotal examples (which I *already acknowledged repeatedly*) as *proof* of net benefit is scary
@glyph @mitsuhiko I don't want to ruin your game, as it seems you both consented to it. Flamimg for flamings sake can be fun. I just want to point out some things for other readers:
Maybe the tank game is functional, and of game jam quality. I can believe that, anyone can learn to write working code.
What I'm more interested in is the hard part of software development: Is this maintainable? Can you make a 2.0 based on it? Can you turn it into a commercial quality game? Can you fix the user crashes and bugs when they come in? Will you be able to make a DLC? Make a good API for modders?
Even if LLM is a time saver now, do you produce technical debt that will slow you down later?
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@glyph @mitsuhiko I don't want to ruin your game, as it seems you both consented to it. Flamimg for flamings sake can be fun. I just want to point out some things for other readers:
Maybe the tank game is functional, and of game jam quality. I can believe that, anyone can learn to write working code.
What I'm more interested in is the hard part of software development: Is this maintainable? Can you make a 2.0 based on it? Can you turn it into a commercial quality game? Can you fix the user crashes and bugs when they come in? Will you be able to make a DLC? Make a good API for modders?
Even if LLM is a time saver now, do you produce technical debt that will slow you down later?
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@mitsuhiko @glyph A greenfield project seems like a good way to trial new technology but it's not a real world condition. Greenfield eventually turns to brownfield. Time and complexity shows where simple systems begin to break down.
Once that happens the AI tools become exponentially worse at making changes. Limited context windows. Complex logic changing over time. Updated dependencies.
And the human may lack the knowledge or ability to pick up the slack: https://leadershiplighthouse.substack.com/p/i-went-all-in-on-ai-the-mit-study
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@glyph ah, internet argumentsโฆ
at least I can say that I am happy about your lack of enthusiasm regarding "AI" โ I would rather Twisted remain a product of human
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@mitsuhiko I could *easily* accept an argument like "we all have to make decisions under uncertainty and *in my experience*, accounting for subjective distortion as best I can, there has been a big net benefit. we're going to have to agree to disagree until someone does a more comprehensive study; I'll gather more data on my own use in the meanwhile"
but your insistence that I recognize these anecdotal examples (which I *already acknowledged repeatedly*) as *proof* of net benefit is scary
@glyph My offer still stands to have a debate on this on a video call!
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@glyph I'd have made the link to jenkem over kratom.
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@bornach @RichiH @GroupNebula563 @glyph
Aside from social aspects, there's also a technical one:
Sea water is aggressive to metal tubes, especially when heated up.
Additionally, the minerals it contains remain as solids when the water is evaporated.I'm sure this would be easily solved with the brilliant idea of datacenters in space, proposed by a man who was already in space, therefore experience, and desalination in space surely can be done easily.
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@mitsuhiko @glyph In hopes that I can foster a better debate culture:
This statement comes off as extremely vague and seemingly ignore all issues I raised. Remember, we can only consider evidence you supplied. We can't read your mind.
In this case, I see that your repo is 3 days old, with only 133 commits. Linking a multi-year project with at thousands of commits would strengthen your argument.
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@glyph So you're saying that I can LLM's to do my job for me, and with all that free time, I can just live, while taking kratom to counter-act my executive dysfunction?
/s for the serious people
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@mitsuhiko @glyph In hopes that I can foster a better debate culture:
This statement comes off as extremely vague and seemingly ignore all issues I raised. Remember, we can only consider evidence you supplied. We can't read your mind.
In this case, I see that your repo is 3 days old, with only 133 commits. Linking a multi-year project with at thousands of commits would strengthen your argument.
@dragonfi @glyph AI does not exist for multiple years, but as an example, my friend Peter has a repository that he contributes to that has way more than 100,000 lines of AI-generated code (https://github.com/clawdbot/clawdbot and dependencies). My company's two repositories are both beyond 100,000 lines of code, all AI maintained. I'm contributing with AI to my own Rust projects like MiniJinja which are all older than AI.
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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Thanks to everyone who responds or replies to my polls. They're one of my favourite parts of being on the Fediverse.
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@zwol at this point I'd forego semantic, and just take easy and nice to look at. If I were writing a book today, I'd author it in Markdown, and then convert it to...whatever...for editing, or whatever at the very end. Before publishing, I ended up converting to an OpenOffice doc with the publishers template for editing, anyway (but I didn't originally write it to be published, it just worked out that way, so the OpenOffice step wasn't originally in the plans).
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@ann3nova this is such a specific thing to obsess over, I love it. I drew my own pointers back then, and the one I used most looked pretty much like this. Same shape, but different colors.
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@swelljoe I completely agree that it becomes tiring looking at all the tags. Not sure I've ever seen a markup language that was both semantic and pleasant to read in source form, though.
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Le matematiche (libro)
@libri - La matematica รจ la stessa, ma la scuola russa la vede in modo diverso
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@zwol I wrote a book in Docbook (SGML first, and then converted to XML later) about 25ish years ago, with a custom vim configuration. It wasn't pleasant. Yes, the tools were bad, but also it's just really sort of tiring looking at all the tags and the processing toolchain was dire.
I was using a LaTeX-based toolchain for the PDF generation, I don't remember details, but Sebastian Rahtz was super helpful when I ran into mysterious issues.
I wouldn't do it again. Different time, different me.
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@jannem Yeah, like, considered as a thing-in-itself apart from the tools, the major complaint I have about DocBook is that the documentation of _how to write a book using DocBook_ is inadequate.
Many people have very similar complaints about LaTeX.
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@Esoteria you might be a little too young for this classic scene from "WKRP in Cincinnati".
