I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
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@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
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@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
@squeakypancakes @liaizon And even if I'm wrong and it's not extremist. What I am oppressing by saying those words and barely disagreeing with you? (though this was a post on Bluesky I was not even talking to you)
You guys need seriously introspection
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lol cool cool
@liaizon also I don't think people know the difference between extremist and radical
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@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
@liaizon @Bike seems like the "mainstream" is still very much TBD. In the big picture it has almost no adoption, is losing active users by the day and all the supposed other applications for ATproto are virtually unused currently.
5 million MAU really isn't much and the startup is also probably going to have to find more funding soon.
Of course it's possible that all the excitement leads to newly found success but it doesn't seem like there's anything suggesting that is an inevitability.
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@neauoire @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility here? It's supposed to be part of the moderation rules btw.
@nicobao @liaizon My making fun of your use of extreme is merely pointing out something I find a bit.. intense.
From where I'm standing, the agency that is afforded to instances in comparison to AT's centralized DID model, is not an extreme position but the barest of minimum, a baseline for communication networks.
There is just no way that your sentiment that you'd rather "run away" from a place that is explicitly going the other way from crypto investment wasn't going to be perceived as a leveled moderate opinion..?
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lol cool cool
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@nicobao @liaizon My making fun of your use of extreme is merely pointing out something I find a bit.. intense.
From where I'm standing, the agency that is afforded to instances in comparison to AT's centralized DID model, is not an extreme position but the barest of minimum, a baseline for communication networks.
There is just no way that your sentiment that you'd rather "run away" from a place that is explicitly going the other way from crypto investment wasn't going to be perceived as a leveled moderate opinion..?
@neauoire @liaizon that's a fair point and I do respect the Palestine argument. I didn't even know this information until OP pointed it out. I fully respect this take and I do not consider this extremist, and even if I did well we can discuss it normally.
My problem is my initial tweet was reacting to the anarchist/anti capitalist/anti VC ethos which is way more objectively, an extremist PoV (which is fine. Just not my cup of tea).
It's a misunderstanding.
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@liaizon I never called YOU an extremist. I called the ideology you mentioned "anarchism, anti capitalism" extremist. It is objectively extremist since it's far left. OWN IT. Your problem is taking it as an insult. It is not an insult for me. As we discussed on Bluesky it is simply not my cup of tea. And what I dislike the most in these ideologies is precisely what you showcased here: mob mentality.
Just because something isn't an insult for you, doesn't make the application of it by you any less of an attempt at an insult.
And because a number of people on Fedi may disagree with you, doesn't make it a mob mentality. It means that people have been subjected to those rhetorical tools in the past, generally in bad faith as a form of harm, and it is likely you are pissing off even more people because of your particular (and somewhat tone deaf) perspective.
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@neauoire @liaizon that's a fair point and I do respect the Palestine argument. I didn't even know this information until OP pointed it out. I fully respect this take and I do not consider this extremist, and even if I did well we can discuss it normally.
My problem is my initial tweet was reacting to the anarchist/anti capitalist/anti VC ethos which is way more objectively, an extremist PoV (which is fine. Just not my cup of tea).
It's a misunderstanding.
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@liaizon this story feels a lot like the solid project https://solidproject.org/
Big splash at the beginning, some nerds get involved... but it's been years now, and when I tried to actually use one of the apps using it, UX was atrocious and I had to join a matrix room to get it working. Now I know I'm not the l33test hacker, but come on!
@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
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@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.
To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.
The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.
I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.
@stefan @liaizon things that may be in the way of that are:
1. fully independent communities don't seem to come cheap with ATproto
2. there's almost no effort to get people to anything else besides the corporate servers so the alternate infrastructure is unlikely to be at a scale that would support any significant migrations at that point
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@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
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@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.
To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.
The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.
I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.
@stefan @liaizon that said I wish Mastodon tried to work a bit more like an project that puts the open source development process first, seems like the team is pretty secretive about how and what they work on except for the very high level overview. I doubt it is a very good recipe for attracting outside devs.
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Just because something isn't an insult for you, doesn't make the application of it by you any less of an attempt at an insult.
And because a number of people on Fedi may disagree with you, doesn't make it a mob mentality. It means that people have been subjected to those rhetorical tools in the past, generally in bad faith as a form of harm, and it is likely you are pissing off even more people because of your particular (and somewhat tone deaf) perspective.
@undead @liaizon the thing is I didn't ask to come here. OP took a screenshot, posted it here and then I received all these notifications misinterpreting my tweet and accusing me of things I don't even mean.
I genuinely do not like the "mob" mentality of ANY community. It's human nature but it's most of all a byproduct of "twitter-like" social apps
I get your point though I should have better phrased that initial tweet. I would have avoided unwillingly offending people and creating this drama. -
@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
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@douginamug @liaizon bluesky and fediverse can be interoperable through bridges, so neither needs to 'win'.
at the same time they're both kind of shaped to be different things: one is a "social networking layer" and one is a "social networking app" on top of a more general app developemt substrate
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@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
@ikuturso @rosano @douginamug a lot has changed in recent months on this front.
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@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
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@liaizon Seems to me that development on AT sped up *at the expense of* development on AP.
That is to say, a lot of the people who've gone all-in on AT were building here before, but have pretty much abandoned AP development. And it's worth examining why AT development was so much more appealing for those folks.
I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.
You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.
I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:
https://mastodon.social/@reiver/114208310829137604
(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)
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@undead @liaizon the thing is I didn't ask to come here. OP took a screenshot, posted it here and then I received all these notifications misinterpreting my tweet and accusing me of things I don't even mean.
I genuinely do not like the "mob" mentality of ANY community. It's human nature but it's most of all a byproduct of "twitter-like" social apps
I get your point though I should have better phrased that initial tweet. I would have avoided unwillingly offending people and creating this drama.@nicobao @undead you directly participated in this discussion by quote posting my post here with your commentary on the other side of the bridge. If you didn't want to participate in the discussion you could have simply not quoted me. I brought you back into this side of the discussion by tagging you directly cause I saw you also had an account here and I thought your view (while very different then mine) to be worth including directly.
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Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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Sabato 21 febbraio: “palestine shall alive” al magazzino 47 di brescia. presentazione di “lessico palestinese” + cena benefit per sos gaza
@anarchia
Dal Csa Magazzino 47: “Sabato 21 febbraio – C.S.A Magazzino 47 – via Industriale 10 – Brescia. Palestine shall alive. Rompiamo il silenzio sul genocidio in corso
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@liaizon and this BTW is why the platforms that compose the Fediverse can and are used also by fascists and their friends (Gab, “Truth” Social, etc) yet those instances are NOT part of the Fediverse.
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Keep calm and Defaidodon
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@artemis Sometimes, some people don't want to see. And there is no person more blind than the one who doesn't want to see. But, no, that doesn't excuse them.
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@michaelc depends on your definition of fun
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so, what do you do for work?
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@foolishowl @artemis @shadowfals Until the early 2000s? It seems to me that the Overton window has been shifting to the right constantly since the Reagan era, and it has worsened in the latest two decades. There hasn't been a leftist on mainstream US TV for half a century. Printed media isn't much better, you have to look for very specific outlets like Jacobin in order to get anything left of billionaire bootlicking.
