So I'm pretty firm that the USA is currently "evil" in the D&D sense of the word, but which evil is it?
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So I'm pretty firm that the USA is currently "evil" in the D&D sense of the word, but which evil is it?
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So I'm pretty firm that the USA is currently "evil" in the D&D sense of the word, but which evil is it?
Remember that Lawful Evil uses LAWS to oppress people, and tends to follow the "I'm not doing anything wrong, this is LEGAL" defence....which we are definitely seeing over and over again in the states.
For some reason, people seem to think of CE as 'more' evil than LE, and I don't think that is true at all.
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Remember that Lawful Evil uses LAWS to oppress people, and tends to follow the "I'm not doing anything wrong, this is LEGAL" defence....which we are definitely seeing over and over again in the states.
For some reason, people seem to think of CE as 'more' evil than LE, and I don't think that is true at all.
The fact that so far after 18 votes, we are at 100% CE indicates to me that the 'CE is the worst E' vibe remains strong.
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The fact that so far after 18 votes, we are at 100% CE indicates to me that the 'CE is the worst E' vibe remains strong.
To me, LE is the 'worst' evil...CE is the evil of psycho killers and loners, LE is the evil where the entire system is built to oppress.
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The fact that so far after 18 votes, we are at 100% CE indicates to me that the 'CE is the worst E' vibe remains strong.
@eldritch48 I think the US has a solid core of LE that provide structure, the "bones" as it were, while CE is how it presents to the world.
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To me, LE is the 'worst' evil...CE is the evil of psycho killers and loners, LE is the evil where the entire system is built to oppress.
@eldritch48 I don't think that's the reason why CE is winning. The thing is that presently the USA is in a state where much of the evil is being committed outside or against the law even if by members of the government. That's not what LE is.
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@eldritch48 I don't think that's the reason why CE is winning. The thing is that presently the USA is in a state where much of the evil is being committed outside or against the law even if by members of the government. That's not what LE is.
@oblomov Those are not the laws of the LE government...those are laws of the previous system. The fundamental of LE is that those in power make whatever laws they want, but they expect others to follow them.
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@oblomov Those are not the laws of the LE government...those are laws of the previous system. The fundamental of LE is that those in power make whatever laws they want, but they expect others to follow them.
@eldritch48 until the laws get updated to their desired shape, their behavior cannot be defined as legal, even in absence of enforcement for the old laws.
And FWIW, I disagree on your interpretation of LE: the fundamental of LE is *following the law*, but in the most ethically despicable way. So, for example, an ambiguous law that may or may not lead to discrimination will be interpreted and enforced in a discriminatory way by an LE, but in a non-discriminatory way by an LG.
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@eldritch48 until the laws get updated to their desired shape, their behavior cannot be defined as legal, even in absence of enforcement for the old laws.
And FWIW, I disagree on your interpretation of LE: the fundamental of LE is *following the law*, but in the most ethically despicable way. So, for example, an ambiguous law that may or may not lead to discrimination will be interpreted and enforced in a discriminatory way by an LE, but in a non-discriminatory way by an LG.
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@eldritch48 yeah? I read that as confirming what I'm saying, and that those in power in the USA can't be classified as LE (at least not until their replace the current laws with ones more amenable to their interest). It's questionable whether they actually adhere to a code (see: Epstein file cover up), they're actively dismantling the order and hierarchy instead of working within to to enforce their ideal (if they even have any), and they do not exploit the rules, they break them.
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@eldritch48 yeah? I read that as confirming what I'm saying, and that those in power in the USA can't be classified as LE (at least not until their replace the current laws with ones more amenable to their interest). It's questionable whether they actually adhere to a code (see: Epstein file cover up), they're actively dismantling the order and hierarchy instead of working within to to enforce their ideal (if they even have any), and they do not exploit the rules, they break them.
@oblomov Interesting, because I see it as confirming my statement too :)
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@eldritch48 yeah? I read that as confirming what I'm saying, and that those in power in the USA can't be classified as LE (at least not until their replace the current laws with ones more amenable to their interest). It's questionable whether they actually adhere to a code (see: Epstein file cover up), they're actively dismantling the order and hierarchy instead of working within to to enforce their ideal (if they even have any), and they do not exploit the rules, they break them.
@eldritch48 now it's quite well possible that when they'll be finished subverting the previous legal system and managed to replace it with one they can follow to their goals, that one may talk about them in LE terms, but this is definitely not the case ATM.
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@oblomov Interesting, because I see it as confirming my statement too :)
@eldritch48 matter of interpretation 8-D
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@eldritch48 yeah? I read that as confirming what I'm saying, and that those in power in the USA can't be classified as LE (at least not until their replace the current laws with ones more amenable to their interest). It's questionable whether they actually adhere to a code (see: Epstein file cover up), they're actively dismantling the order and hierarchy instead of working within to to enforce their ideal (if they even have any), and they do not exploit the rules, they break them.
@oblomov I think it's because I don't agree with you that them ignoring the current laws doesn't make them lawful.
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@oblomov I think it's because I don't agree with you that them ignoring the current laws doesn't make them lawful.
@eldritch48 quite possible. I maintain that a LE will follow the law, even if just in terms of the process to change it in a way that fits their personal interest better. Someone that decides to follow or break the law based on opportunity for self-interest is NE. But at least seen from the outside we're seeing an intentional disregard of any and all rules, which is why I'd go with CE.
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@eldritch48 quite possible. I maintain that a LE will follow the law, even if just in terms of the process to change it in a way that fits their personal interest better. Someone that decides to follow or break the law based on opportunity for self-interest is NE. But at least seen from the outside we're seeing an intentional disregard of any and all rules, which is why I'd go with CE.
@oblomov Except they use laws as the "excuse" for everything they are doing with ICE et al.
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@oblomov Except they use laws as the "excuse" for everything they are doing with ICE et al.
@eldritch48 but they're actually in violation. And they've had pushback whenever someone has actually stood up to them rather than complying in advance. An LE would never fall in such situations. (I actually know LE people. They're bureaucratic to a fault.)
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@eldritch48 but they're actually in violation. And they've had pushback whenever someone has actually stood up to them rather than complying in advance. An LE would never fall in such situations. (I actually know LE people. They're bureaucratic to a fault.)
@oblomov I would just say that's because they are still fighting against some LN and LG people in the system, the takeover isn't entirely complete :)
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@oblomov I would just say that's because they are still fighting against some LN and LG people in the system, the takeover isn't entirely complete :)
@eldritch48 yeah, I think that's where we disagree. An LE (especially with the amount of political and judicial power they have now) wouldn't resort to break the law to purge the LN and LG people from the system, it'll find the systemic way to achieve that.
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