So the good thing about Linux distros switching to Wayland long before Wayland is remotely ready is that contact with real-world users will make the "pain points" visible so they can be fixed.

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc so for example KiCAD used to have a metric shitload of bugs and annoyances and crashes, it was genuinely not good. and then a few of the devs decided to get together and run these community feedback things where they asked "what's the most annoying bug?" and such by email campaigns. and then devs took that feedback and turned them into bug tickets and fixed them. the bandwidth was always there, just people were putting up with the problems and never getting around to reporting them.

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc the majority of my grievances with wayland have had bugs open for years and people pleading for them to be fixed

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc yeah I mean there are probably a bunch of things in Wayland that are missing and problematic for sure, based on my outsider view of it, my point is that there's also this endemic problem that leads to apathy across the board

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc and "actually the Philosophers created a protocol for this (which nothing implements), therefore this is not a problem" is a very common reply by wayland apologists when people complain about wayland problems

[gsuberland@chaos.social]

@aeva @mcc on this side of it have no opinion because I don't use Linux at all (just FreeBSD and Windows in my world)

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland @mcc maybe there's apathy but it's not for a lack of awareness on the part of the maintainers

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@gsuberland if you don't have an opinion don't express one

[not2b@sfba.social]

@fluffy @mcc Yes, X evolved into a hopeless buggy and insecure piece of crap that no number of extensions could fix and Wayland was the way forward. But it is common to find that the second system that is supposed to solve everything has its own issues.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@not2b @fluffy however wayland development is also largely driven by extensions

[fluffy@plush.city]

@mcc @not2b I feel like it's a bit different when you don't have to worry about network transparency or multiple vendors. Also if I understand correctly (I probably don't), Wayland extensions are more like API suites that are incrementally being supported for everything.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@fluffy @not2b what is the difference between "multiple vendors" and "every DE now ships its own compositor"?

[mattdm@hachyderm.io]

@aeva @gsuberland @mcc

It's funny because it's true.

By which I mean: there are not, actually, any magical infinite funds to support desktop Linux, because that has no commercial value whatsoever, but it's 100% free to shit on people who are volunteering their time to try to make things better as best they can. You can earn valuable Mastodon Snark Points for it, which you can cash in for fuck all in actually making things better.

Or you could, you know, not so that.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@mattdm @aeva @gsuberland Fuck off. We need our computers to work and currently they do not. The distros made a decision which brought our computers from a working to a nonworking state. That was the right decision from the project's perspective but it causes problems for the users and the projects knew that when they made the decision. If someone wants me to contribute code to make things better I can potentially do that but if you want me to pretend to be happy I will not

[aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@mattdm @gsuberland @mcc buddy we are talking about problems we're actively experiencing that we can't make any headway on and you are the one who is kicking people while they're down

[mattdm@hachyderm.io]

@mcc @aeva @gsuberland

The people who sell computers don't have a great incentive to make them "work". They just need to Windows well enough. If you want that, that's for sale. If you don't, well, there's no commercial interest in anything else. So,we have to do what we can. The people working on it know _to the breaking point of their souls_ that it isn't perfect.

[mcc@mastodon.social]

@mattdm @aeva @gsuberland In fact the computer I purchased specifically advertised support for Ubuntu Linux. That was one of the reasons I purchased it.

[jannem@fosstodon.org]

@mcc @mattdm @aeva @gsuberland
What was the alternative though? The Xorg maintainers were saying that nope, they're not going to continue developing it any longer. What should distros have done?

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@jannem @mcc @mattdm @aeva @gsuberland my alternative so far has been simply to stick with X sessions because any of the issues X has I've already worked around and while it's not as nice at it could be at least I can get my work done and the behavior has been predictable for 10+years now that the horde of CADT developers have moved to Wayland. But I understand that not everybody has the luxury to make the choices I've made.

[gkrnours@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@aeva @mcc I'm pretty sure awesomewm was using wayland and I was using it 10 to 15 years ago. It's wild to me I am now hearing about major DE switchint to it, dropping X11 support and lot of big issue like "wayland have zero standard for screencapture". I do screenshot every week, if not every day. Sharing your screen in visioconference is like a major need at dayjob.