Hrm. I… hrm.
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@mcc but isn't that just unikernels? I mean, unikraft exists, they have a docker-like description file, can strap a unikernel or linux under the application and run it in a VM. Ok, optimized for boot time, not security.
@snaums I am not a member of the Litebox team and cannot speculate why they did not take this path. Possibilities include:
- The proposal you describe is already being done, and therefore not an interesting project for a research team.
- Possibly some important Linux applications necessarily involve a web of processes with IPC, a poor fit for unikernel.
- Possibly some single-process applications "should" be untrusted due to their input (for example: a web browser that executes sandboxed JS)
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@mcc minix3 exists
@bob Interesting
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Hmm, nope, copilot.md there just more insidious.
https://mastodon.social/@sarahjamielewis/116008743274901543
What I want is to be able to run a full-computer software stack with no "AI"-gen code. Unless/until we get mandatory product-labeling laws, this is incompatible with using any open-source code outside my control, as fake-code distributors often hide it. So I find myself drawn to something like "retrocomputing, but not old": Can I make a minimal full software stack I *wrote myself*. Strip the "OS" until it's in my grasp
@mcc sometimes I too want to go permacomputing route. Maybe DuskOS approach could be a good one. Maybe using pen and paper is even better.
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@mcc but isn't that just unikernels? I mean, unikraft exists, they have a docker-like description file, can strap a unikernel or linux under the application and run it in a VM. Ok, optimized for boot time, not security.
@snaums @mcc My understanding, which comes from someone who's hacked a lot on MirageOS, is that they're great and fun for small applications, but often you want a big piece of common functionality that the libraries your unikernel framework provides don't have, and, are you up for building it?
Which is a LOT of (design+implementation) work. The people with tons of money aren't motivated to fund this work. But you can't reuse existing software from outside that unikernel project. So it's on you.
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This might take twenty years, but I've got those.
@mcc i’m always so glad to learn that there’s someone else with my basic attitude towards life and doing things out of spite
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@snaums @mcc My understanding, which comes from someone who's hacked a lot on MirageOS, is that they're great and fun for small applications, but often you want a big piece of common functionality that the libraries your unikernel framework provides don't have, and, are you up for building it?
Which is a LOT of (design+implementation) work. The people with tons of money aren't motivated to fund this work. But you can't reuse existing software from outside that unikernel project. So it's on you.
@snaums @mcc And from what I've heard the design part gets so big, because it's not just "I've gotta port ext4 support to a new platform", or "I've gotta write ext4 support from scratch", or even "I've gotta implement a Unix filesystem interface for this new OS", or EVEN "I need to design my own filesystem interface", but "does the concept of a filesystem make sense for my unikernel application's persistent storage needs, or would something else be better".
And you can imagine the bikeshedding.
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@snaums @mcc And from what I've heard the design part gets so big, because it's not just "I've gotta port ext4 support to a new platform", or "I've gotta write ext4 support from scratch", or even "I've gotta implement a Unix filesystem interface for this new OS", or EVEN "I need to design my own filesystem interface", but "does the concept of a filesystem make sense for my unikernel application's persistent storage needs, or would something else be better".
And you can imagine the bikeshedding.
@snaums @mcc All that said, I don't wanna imply that the people working on unikernels haven't done amazing things! The one my friend has worked a lot on, https://mirage.io, does have a pretty impressive collection of libraries by now: https://github.com/orgs/mirage/repositories
But goals like "running unmodified Linux programs" seem kinda out-of-scope for what unikernels can offer. (If you _really_ wanna isolate some public-facing service and make it as stripped down as possible, that's their time to shine.)
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This might take twenty years, but I've got those.
@mcc I find Project Oberon quite interesting because it is a entire system incl Programming Language/Compiler written from scratch. „Project Oberon is a design for a complete desktop computer system from scratch. Its simplicity and clarity enables a single person to know and implement the whole system, while still providing enough power to make it useful and usable in a production environment.“ https://www.projectoberon.net
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@mcc sometimes I too want to go permacomputing route. Maybe DuskOS approach could be a good one. Maybe using pen and paper is even better.
@nina_kali_nina clay tablet?
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@nina_kali_nina clay tablet?
@freelikegnu it's not a bad option, actually. Have you tried it?
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@freelikegnu it's not a bad option, actually. Have you tried it?
@nina_kali_nina tempted, as some rather ancient content creators of the most mundane subjects "traded cow for goat, lol", are still being followed by the top minds in their fields.
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@nina_kali_nina tempted, as some rather ancient content creators of the most mundane subjects "traded cow for goat, lol", are still being followed by the top minds in their fields.
@freelikegnu it is a medium with longevity that, when properly stored, can outlive Flash memory by the factor of 1000
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@freelikegnu it is a medium with longevity that, when properly stored, can outlive Flash memory by the factor of 1000
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Been wanting to try an OS project and of course, in Rust, why not. The two things I've been considering starting with are the rust "uefi" crate, or Redox OS. Rust-uefi, Redox, and Litebox I'd of course be targeting for different reasons, but if the meta-goal is to learn "OS things", the proximate reasons aren't so important.
@mcc That's what Minix was designed to be and that caused Linux, so be careful what you wish for.
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So, with the above as context, Microsoft Litebox is *very* interesting. You could very well write an OS yourself, but writing a stack of *all* apps you use is harder. Hundred Rabbits did it! But what I probs want is the minimal basis for some *existing standard*, webtech or POSIX. Microsoft here is creating "a minimal basis for POSIX", but for a different reason: Instead of "I want it small so I can write it myself" it's "I want it small so it's good for Docker/Hyper-V".
… but MS means Copilot.
*Suddenly open eyes awake at 5:30 AM*
I should write something that pastes rust-uefi to the Servo web browser engine. Implements only what it needs to run. A ChromeOS-like, or a Servo unikernel.
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I could call it Boot-to-Servo.
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Or BTS for short.
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Wait. Wait. No. Okay. Yeah no that wouldn't work.
*Goes back to sleep*
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