Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs @zzt This doesn't feel honest. Maybe from you personally, sure. But not from Mozilla or the Firefox team.
That is like, I decide the car you get. The brand, the model, the color. But hey, don't worry, your voice is important too, so you are allowed to decide what bumper-sticker I will put on your car.
Seriously, this fake inclusion is kinda insulting.
Again, nothing personal against you. But where else should I share my opinion, consider Mozilla even ignores its own feedback platform 🤷
@pixel @firefoxwebdevs @zzt I hope our friend resists the urge to put a pretty face on all of our blunt feedback before the next meeting where the objective will be further redefining what level of damage control will magically turn Mozilla's bad choices into good ones.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs I appreciate that you're asking us Firefox users for our opinion on a feature. Keep doing this please.
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@pixel @firefoxwebdevs @zzt I hope our friend resists the urge to put a pretty face on all of our blunt feedback before the next meeting where the objective will be further redefining what level of damage control will magically turn Mozilla's bad choices into good ones.
@liquor_american @pixel @firefoxwebdevs I suspect the only feedback that’ll get relayed is the feedback from the posters who still kneejerk defend Mozilla as an institution. the rest of us are just too rude to be counted as part of the community (because we use and care deeply about Firefox and hate the entirely avoidable path it’s gone down)
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I think the challenge with everything going on here is one of clarity.
@sil, you are asking them about disclosure of models and sourcing. But that is far from the only AI that is in the system.
The tool that does grammar checking and language identification does not leverage an LLM, and while there may be some type of model underneath, the context is very different. Tools that detect spam pages or faulty JavaScript that locks the pages, that's another type of AI hard at work.
Is the browser allowed to support speech to text?
@jmax You're calling out that Firefox may not be able to do this, but I think that mischaracterizes the scope of what's happening here.
The browser has several types of non-deterministic, probabilistic tools in it that provide useful services. Now there's a backlash against one very specific version of those non-deterministic, probabilistic tools. But the backlash is vociferous, often unsolvable, and incredibly broad.
It's hard to engage with non-specific anger.
@gatesvp @firefoxwebdevs @jmax of course there's much "AI" stuff in firefox. I'm assuming that it would all be listed, and all disableable. The CEO promised "a clear way to turn AI features off... A real kill switch" -- if all that other stuff qualifies as "AI", then that means it'll be turn-off-able, no?
I agree that it's hard to engage with non-specific anger; I think the way to add clarity to that conversation is to be specific, about which AI parts are in Moz and where they came from. -
Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs come on man.
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@firefoxwebdevs I mean realistically, we have about:config at home, and y'all are already not respecting that
why the future "KILL SWITCH" carrot? it just comes across like a Musk promise
@firefoxwebdevs going through all the other replies and your lack of response to any of them..
“why are there flaming bags of poop on my porch, and why do they all have different postmarks”
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs I love the on-device translations and don't really want the other stuff.
Yes the kill switch should ideally be a settings page with many toggles for all ML-like features and an obvious master enable/disable-all toggle at the top of the page. -
@gatesvp @firefoxwebdevs @jmax of course there's much "AI" stuff in firefox. I'm assuming that it would all be listed, and all disableable. The CEO promised "a clear way to turn AI features off... A real kill switch" -- if all that other stuff qualifies as "AI", then that means it'll be turn-off-able, no?
I agree that it's hard to engage with non-specific anger; I think the way to add clarity to that conversation is to be specific, about which AI parts are in Moz and where they came from.@gatesvp @firefoxwebdevs @jmax this sounds like it could be a horribly onerous task for the Moz dev teams, of course. And I think that a Mozilla viewed as on the side of the angels could get away with saying, hey this translation/JS loop detection stuff is "AI" but that's not really what you want to turn off so it's not on the list, and be trusted. But Moz is increasingly not viewed by some of its user community as deserving that benefit of the doubt.
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@firefoxwebdevs jonah, I hate to break it to you and the LLM shaped like a product manager that’s setting the agenda for your meetings, but the only time I hear about Firefox translations in any context is when Mozilla PMs try to hold it up as an example of an ethical, low-resource, useful AI feature so they can convince to be a fan of the worthless LLM shit they’re actually there to push
the reason why I don’t hear about translations otherwise is simple: it’s shit
@zzt @firefoxwebdevs there are plenty of users who want to translate stuff in browsers, I am one. To me it seems super reasonable for a product rendering content to also offer translation of it.
fyi you're coming across as very cynical (and I say that as someone who's pretty cynical towards AI hype and the current tech industry myself… I *get* it…)
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@liquor_american @pixel @firefoxwebdevs I suspect the only feedback that’ll get relayed is the feedback from the posters who still kneejerk defend Mozilla as an institution. the rest of us are just too rude to be counted as part of the community (because we use and care deeply about Firefox and hate the entirely avoidable path it’s gone down)
@zzt @pixel @firefoxwebdevs "Nobody likes our product any longer, but at least we never had to entertain any *shudder* critical feedback."
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@zzt @firefoxwebdevs there are plenty of users who want to translate stuff in browsers, I am one. To me it seems super reasonable for a product rendering content to also offer translation of it.
fyi you're coming across as very cynical (and I say that as someone who's pretty cynical towards AI hype and the current tech industry myself… I *get* it…)
@hdv @firefoxwebdevs thanks for telling me about some software you use and then insulting me!
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@tasket if you want a serious discussion about the role translations should or shouldn’t have in a browser, let me refer you to steve: https://hci.social/@fasterandworse/115849566354469222
I don’t really feel anything about the translations feature other than disappointment, a bit of concern over how the data was sourced, and a strong feeling that it shouldn’t be a core browser feature
@zzt @firefoxwebdevs OK, now make the same argument for the spell-checker, sync, and the set of CAs, etc. etc. supplied with the browser. Its as if y'all were trained by Microsoft PR to take the arguments Mozilla used against tying IE to Windows and extend them ad-absurd-um to features in Mozilla's own browser ("just turn it around back in their faces" said the Armani suit).
Meanwhile, Red Hat is quietly undermining any legal basis for copyleft and leaning into the idea that gratis products (Fedora) shouldn't have robust & transparent system update tools. Oh and the umpteen other for-profit controlled (opposite of Mozilla) FOSS projects that get plugged in these spaces pretty much constantly. Linux Foundation being controlled by Microsoft and Google...? crickets chirping.
This is what makes me tired of IT and geek culture. Its become like everything else, just kneejerk crap with zero reflection and sense of proportion. As I hinted above, it morphs into this shadow of corporate PR. Consider, if people spent their time criticizing actual badness in Firefox, like ad tracking and DoH, that would be inconvenient for certain interests from Brave on up to Apple and Google. I think the style and quality of venting we usually see about Mozilla serves those interests, much of it probably fed by sock puppets.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs I think the best might be to generalize the "yes, but" answer.
Have a set of toggles, one for each feature. Whatever the default state is:
When I (the user) press the TURN OFF AI button or whatever the mechanics are, force them all to (as actively selected) OFF and make the default for any newly added such features also OFF (by implication of the default).
Let me manually toggle a given, specific feature back ON if I want to, *while* keeping the rest including default OFF.
½
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@zzt @firefoxwebdevs OK, now make the same argument for the spell-checker, sync, and the set of CAs, etc. etc. supplied with the browser. Its as if y'all were trained by Microsoft PR to take the arguments Mozilla used against tying IE to Windows and extend them ad-absurd-um to features in Mozilla's own browser ("just turn it around back in their faces" said the Armani suit).
Meanwhile, Red Hat is quietly undermining any legal basis for copyleft and leaning into the idea that gratis products (Fedora) shouldn't have robust & transparent system update tools. Oh and the umpteen other for-profit controlled (opposite of Mozilla) FOSS projects that get plugged in these spaces pretty much constantly. Linux Foundation being controlled by Microsoft and Google...? crickets chirping.
This is what makes me tired of IT and geek culture. Its become like everything else, just kneejerk crap with zero reflection and sense of proportion. As I hinted above, it morphs into this shadow of corporate PR. Consider, if people spent their time criticizing actual badness in Firefox, like ad tracking and DoH, that would be inconvenient for certain interests from Brave on up to Apple and Google. I think the style and quality of venting we usually see about Mozilla serves those interests, much of it probably fed by sock puppets.
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@hdv @firefoxwebdevs thanks for telling me about some software you use and then insulting me!
@zzt @hdv@front-end.social @firefoxwebdevs god forbid someone talk about a technology from an industry of liars, responding to a survey from an organisation that's already lying to its users, with a survey carefully missing the option the majority of respondents actually want (make it an extension), and come across as *cynical*
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@firefoxwebdevs I think the best might be to generalize the "yes, but" answer.
Have a set of toggles, one for each feature. Whatever the default state is:
When I (the user) press the TURN OFF AI button or whatever the mechanics are, force them all to (as actively selected) OFF and make the default for any newly added such features also OFF (by implication of the default).
Let me manually toggle a given, specific feature back ON if I want to, *while* keeping the rest including default OFF.
½
@firefoxwebdevs I realize that there's a lot of very vocal people about this, and you might note that I specifically say "whatever the default state is". *At least put the user in a position of being able to easily control these features* and turn them on or off per their preference. For some people, some of those features can be genuinely useful (as illustrated by some replies in this very thread, even). Not *having* to throw the baby out with the bathwater is advantageous.
2/2
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Remove all the LLMs, then you won't need the kill switch
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@firefoxwebdevs What do you mean "open data"? https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/toolkit/components/translations/resources/01_overview.html points to https://browser.mt/ points to https://paracrawl.eu/index.php which says "We do not own any of the text from which these data has been extracted."
@twifkak Wouldn't that be a valid working definition of "open"?
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@firefoxwebdevs jonah, I hate to break it to you and the LLM shaped like a product manager that’s setting the agenda for your meetings, but the only time I hear about Firefox translations in any context is when Mozilla PMs try to hold it up as an example of an ethical, low-resource, useful AI feature so they can convince to be a fan of the worthless LLM shit they’re actually there to push
the reason why I don’t hear about translations otherwise is simple: it’s shit
@firefoxwebdevs an important addendum regarding Firefox translate: by my math (N = my replies), 25% of its users are fucking unhinged
I told them not to use the necronomicon to train the base model but here we fucking are
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@zzt @firefoxwebdevs OK, now make the same argument for the spell-checker, sync, and the set of CAs, etc. etc. supplied with the browser. Its as if y'all were trained by Microsoft PR to take the arguments Mozilla used against tying IE to Windows and extend them ad-absurd-um to features in Mozilla's own browser ("just turn it around back in their faces" said the Armani suit).
Meanwhile, Red Hat is quietly undermining any legal basis for copyleft and leaning into the idea that gratis products (Fedora) shouldn't have robust & transparent system update tools. Oh and the umpteen other for-profit controlled (opposite of Mozilla) FOSS projects that get plugged in these spaces pretty much constantly. Linux Foundation being controlled by Microsoft and Google...? crickets chirping.
This is what makes me tired of IT and geek culture. Its become like everything else, just kneejerk crap with zero reflection and sense of proportion. As I hinted above, it morphs into this shadow of corporate PR. Consider, if people spent their time criticizing actual badness in Firefox, like ad tracking and DoH, that would be inconvenient for certain interests from Brave on up to Apple and Google. I think the style and quality of venting we usually see about Mozilla serves those interests, much of it probably fed by sock puppets.
@tasket @zzt @firefoxwebdevs today i learned that SSL certificates were a *kind* of AI
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Mah
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