when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have?
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@RyanParsley to be clear for me i'm mostly interested in figuring out if the man pages can become _better_ so that using them is actually a good experience, not accepting a bad experience
@b0rk a general statement of when official docs feel not super helpful is when they clearly articulate what a tool does without managing to express why/when kinds of context.
A good blog post about a tool tells a story that docs don't tend to.
Why does `man stow` mention perl or Carnegie mellon's depo program? That man page is pretty good all around but does have stuff to skim over that doesn't feel like it's there in service of the user.
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@RyanParsley to be clear for me i'm mostly interested in figuring out if the man pages can become _better_ so that using them is actually a good experience, not accepting a bad experience
@b0rk when you say better, do you mean content or format? Like jq man page is pretty stellar on the content side.
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@b0rk For me, it is avery very old habit. When I started out poking at Unix systems, if I wanted to "get information from outside the computer I was on", I could, if I was lucky, turn my head and ask someone else in the same room.
Otherwise, I would have to fire up a newsreader, post to UseNet, wait for the UUCP spool to empty (over a modem), wait for the reply to be written, then wait for the relevant article to trickle back in a later UUCP update batch.
I will, frequently, after having opened the man page, start a web search pretty soon after, because many man pages are badly written (and I must say that good technical writing is a skill that doesn't necessarily correlate with "ability to write code").
@vatine @b0rk I feel you, with a twist: The first UNIX System I used was a Siemens SINIX machine at the university hospital, and it came with many, many volumes of printed out man pages! I was tasked with administering the machine as a Zivildienstleistender, because nobody else was around anymore who could do it ...
So I spent the first month just reading all the man pages and trying out commands. -
@RyanParsley to be clear for me i'm mostly interested in figuring out if the man pages can become _better_ so that using them is actually a good experience, not accepting a bad experience
@b0rk the man page for just is basically a less pretty help command :)
I suspect if people discover too many in a row like that and stop running that command.
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@b0rk when you say better, do you mean content or format? Like jq man page is pretty stellar on the content side.
@RyanParsley either!
(it's a little hard for me to think about jq because I've completely given up on learning the jq language, but I don't think that has anything to do with the quality of the documentation)
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")i tend to use search engines to find a tool if i don't already have one i think suitable.
for simpler tools, -h/--help usually works.
for anything complex, like curl/rsync/etc, the man page is usually my first stop.
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk when I already know that this is the tool I need, the sequence is frequently: man -> look for examples section -> use search -> use man for extra details
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i think part of the reason I'm feeling interested in man pages right now even though I rarely use them is that search has gotten so much worse, it's frustrating, and it makes it feel more appealing to have trustworthy sources with clear explanations
@b0rk i highly recommend the tldr program https://tldr.sh/
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@b0rk FWIW, I first write the man page, then the code. Helps me clarify what the user wants, how I will interact with the tool. I then generate the README from the man page.
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk man pages can be verbose, so I like the tldr utility that exists that complements those. I'll more likely use -h and tldr in concert to find what I need.
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@b0rk i highly recommend the tldr program https://tldr.sh/
@kgndiue yea I don't use it but I've heard from so many people they like it, seems like a good resource!
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i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk to some degree, it’s a habit that predates googles existence
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@kgndiue yea I don't use it but I've heard from so many people they like it, seems like a good resource!
@b0rk its basically a curated digest of manpages that covers the most use cases. Like a shortcut to a good examples section.
By the way, your zines are awesome and i have deep respect for your ability to communicate deep technical expertise while being welcoming, reassuring and funny.
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@RyanParsley either!
(it's a little hard for me to think about jq because I've completely given up on learning the jq language, but I don't think that has anything to do with the quality of the documentation)
@b0rk are you already familiar with https://tldr.sh/. I don't have it in my workflow, but seems like a neat idea to complement man pages.
Even if you have no interest in using it, perhaps it's existence and what's working there could be useful data.
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@b0rk its basically a curated digest of manpages that covers the most use cases. Like a shortcut to a good examples section.
By the way, your zines are awesome and i have deep respect for your ability to communicate deep technical expertise while being welcoming, reassuring and funny.
@kgndiue aw thank you so much!
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@b0rk are you already familiar with https://tldr.sh/. I don't have it in my workflow, but seems like a neat idea to complement man pages.
Even if you have no interest in using it, perhaps it's existence and what's working there could be useful data.
@RyanParsley yeah! i think 20 people have told me about it today haha, I don't use it either but people tell me all the time that they like it, I think it's an interesting project
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when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk
It used to be --help, and I sometimes still use it (but frustrated from browsers etc. that don't comply to the convention) - no need to state that, but I found something more interesting:
Many tools come with bash completion when installed through a package manager.
So the first thing I really try nowadays is:
- type a few promising characters
- hit TAB
- if unsuccessful, delete some, type some new.
If this won't work, I might try the man page - or a google search, it depends. -
also it just occurred to me that the one time I wrote a command line tool (https://rbspy.github.io/) I didn't write a man page for it, I made a documentation website instead. I don't remember even considering writing a man page, probably because I rarely use man pages
(not looking to argue about whether command line tools "should" have man pages or not, just reflecting about how maybe I personally would prefer a good docs website over a man page. Also please no "webpages require internet")
@b0rk For me I think it's a composite of four things:
* old pre-good-search habits of reading manpages first, which also gives me lots of practice at navigating them.
* I often only want some specific piece of information (eg 'what switch is used for ...') that I can find with a search of the manpage in less
* Internet search has gotten untrustworthy and bad.
* Sometimes I want to see the authoritative 'what the program says' instead of people describing it. -
@RyanParsley either!
(it's a little hard for me to think about jq because I've completely given up on learning the jq language, but I don't think that has anything to do with the quality of the documentation)
@b0rk @RyanParsley any idea what are the main pain points make it hard to learn? "everything is a generator" and how arguments work are two of them it seems
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@b0rk @RyanParsley any idea what are the main pain points make it hard to learn? "everything is a generator" and how arguments work are two of them it seems
@wader not sure, maybe the idea of learning a specialized domain specific language just doesn't feel worth it. Like I've never learned the awk language either
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