when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have?
Uncategorized
272
Posts
207
Posters
0
Views
-
@b0rk … anymore (`man mlr` doesn't work, `mlr --help` directly links to its docs website). And for more complex tools, that's probably fair – you're not going to learn how to use a massive tool from man pages (examples of "this should not be one man page" is `man gcc`,`man bash, `fish-doc`, `libuv` or `man mplayer`), but for smaller things, authors who sit down to write a man page for modern tools typically actually *think* about what is a sensible thing to put in that format.
@b0rk In fact, that's been so often the case for me that I tend to think "OK, for 5 minutes of reading instead of 30 s of searching, I can actually learn how this generally works, is that worth 4min 30s? yes!" and then read the man page.
-
@b0rk In fact, that's been so often the case for me that I tend to think "OK, for 5 minutes of reading instead of 30 s of searching, I can actually learn how this generally works, is that worth 4min 30s? yes!" and then read the man page.
@b0rk (Neither "not changing context" nor "same version" are good arguments, imho. I *want* to have the documentation in a different thing than the terminal I'm currently working in. What use is modern screens else. Tools rarely change so rapidly that the things I need to learn to get started would immediately outdate, and if they do, it's usually a good sign for that tool being pretty specialized and me probably needing to read more)
-
also it just occurred to me that the one time I wrote a command line tool (https://rbspy.github.io/) I didn't write a man page for it, I made a documentation website instead. I don't remember even considering writing a man page, probably because I rarely use man pages
(not looking to argue about whether command line tools "should" have man pages or not, just reflecting about how maybe I personally would prefer a good docs website over a man page. Also please no "webpages require internet")
@b0rk I've written --help output, but I've never known how to write a man page.
-
@aburka that's what fish does! Well it just opens the HTML file in the browser, no need to start a local web server for those docs
-
@b0rk the mentioned utilities, mostly man page. ffmpeg? Straight to search.
@danlyke @b0rk FFmpeg options and arguments are a language in their own right. Knowledge about video formats is more trade knowledge than conceptual knowledge, and I've always had difficulty getting motivated to study that kind of stuff, so I look to the web for information about how to use ffmpeg, and yeah, I use it as cargo cult code. I bookmark them under "ffmpeg-recipes".
-
when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk "That depends..." Isn't a great answer, but that's the case. Reference for command line options? Man page first. Example usage and reference applications? Google search, AI tools. Project website first, man page examples after. Except if it's a bash question, then man page first.
-
when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk if we include --help in this, the answer is “whenever I know a tool can do a thing but can’t remember how”. If I don’t know which tool can do a thing, I search the internet rather than using apropos or similar.
I don’t often use actual man pages (except man bash), because I’ve been conditioned by how many tools don’t have them: in theory everything in Ubuntu should, because it’s from Debian which also should, but there’s lots of man 7 undocumented in there so I was Pavlov’ed away from it. -
@b0rk if we include --help in this, the answer is “whenever I know a tool can do a thing but can’t remember how”. If I don’t know which tool can do a thing, I search the internet rather than using apropos or similar.
I don’t often use actual man pages (except man bash), because I’ve been conditioned by how many tools don’t have them: in theory everything in Ubuntu should, because it’s from Debian which also should, but there’s lots of man 7 undocumented in there so I was Pavlov’ed away from it.@b0rk but I tend to use --help before searches, because as you and others say, searches are so clogged with shit these days that they’re unreliable. Although it’s reassuring to see how often manpages.ubuntu.com is at the top of the list.
-
i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk reading the manpage I also accidentally learn stuff I wasn't looking for. Oftentimes I learn that what I was planning to do was the wrong approach and learn how to do it better.
Reading the man page also makes the knowledge "sink in" more for me, so next time I won't have to look it up.
That's why I read the --help and the manpage first. Your brain might work differently, I'm not trying to tell you you should as well.
-
@b0rk for some commands I know the manpage is decent and I'll look there. for others I know it doesn't exist or is crap, so I'll check -h or just search online. I sometimes reach for it first on new commands, sometimes not. no real rhyme or reason, mostly just whatever direction my brain goes in the moment.
I do, however, hate certain manpages with a fiery passion. like builtins being one giant manpage that you can't search because it looks for results in all builtin commands. hateful design.
@gsuberland @b0rk pet hate: when you type <command> -h, and it responds along the lines of “-h is not a recognised option, use -? for help” (or vice versa).
That’s some passive aggressive bullshit, just give me the damn help options 🤨
-
i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk Assuming the man page docset is properly curated, it should be a comprehensive an authoritative answer to how the tool works.
Caveat: I spent years in a techpubs department writing and maintaining UNIX man pages. I have strong opinions!
-
i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I guess it depends on what you mean by "figure out how to do something"
If I've already figured out what command/function to use but am unsure of the details, man pages are just faster. And if that doesn't help, I'll look elsewhere
If I don't know what man page to even look at, then I'll search first
-
i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk I learned Unix thirty years ago, when the manpages were what was easiest to get at, and so that's what became my habitual first stop ... for things that have manpages anyway. I also have Firefox "custom search keywords" dedicated to the Python and Rust documentation websites.
-
when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk I use the man page reference on the web first. It’s just quicker for me.
-
@b0rk The point of having a man page (or as you edited the original post: a --help) is that it's self-contained and, hopefully, true to the actual thing you're trying to run. The website requires an internet connection and it might be about a newer version than you have (did your distro or you forget to upgrade the tool?) or older (did the author forget to update the documentation?) and while a site is often a better UX (graphical browsers and whatnot), those are issues to be considered.
-
when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk 1. Scan --help. If I can’t figure it out within a minute or two,
2. Web search. If not found,
3. man pageIn that order.
-
i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk With cross platform differences in CLI tools, the man pages locally are more authoritative than Google.
Mostly, though, I go there first to verify the flags provided in a script or other source, or to convert short flags to long flags in my own scripts, since I prefer that “self-documenting” enhancement.
-
i'm very curious about everyone who says "I'd look there first", if I want to figure out how to do something new I think I'll usually google how to do it rather than look at the man page, and then maybe later look at the man page to look up the details
(I've gotten enough of these answers:
- "I like that man pages don't require changing context"
- "with the man page I know I have the right version of the docs")@b0rk generally with CLI-tools, I already know how they work and just have a new case that I'm fairly confident it can do but need to quickly check the syntax for. In this case, man is the straightforward way to find it.
I have never found them at all useful to learn a new tool, and perfectly useless to discover tools with.
-
@b0rk 1. Scan --help. If I can’t figure it out within a minute or two,
2. Web search. If not found,
3. man pageIn that order.
@drahardja @b0rk I normally go 3 - 1 - 2
-
when do you usually use the man page for a complex command line tool to answer a question you have? (like git, openssl, rsync, curl, etc)
(edit: no need to say "i use --help then man")
@b0rk I do use them pretty often. But it’s usually very hard to find what I want, especially for complex questions. Simpler tools have more useful man pages, more complex tools are basically so comprehensive that every word in the English language is in them so you can’t find anything
Feed RSS
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
-
Certe volte Tony assume un'aria di indifferente superiorità da gatto saggio.
Invece è un sempliciotto tontolone. 😅
#Caturday #CatsOfMastodon #BlackCat #GattoNero
-
I have not done any vibe coding and have a question for those who have.
Suppose you request a change, adding features, changing things around based on learning and testing, which is generally what happens after you've been working on something new.
Here's the question. What happens when you ask for a change that requires the codebase to be reorganized.
How did that go? Do the AIs know that's possible or do they just pile on special cases?
-
-
MA come… vorrete mica dirmi che NON avete dei dadi DIN 917 in qualche cassetto?
Non so come siano arrivati nella #mastofficina né da quanto tempo giacciano lì, ma ora me ne serve uno.
Hint: gli idraulici li usano per fissare i sanitari al pavimento, quindi se dovete comperarne avete già un'idea di dove andare a guardare.
-
#Poll: Broadly speaking, you identify as...
-
@ilarioq .... S'agissant d'un téléphone valant 500 us$..... Si on veut.
Donc revenons en à la souveraineté : quel scénario possible de souveraineté 'téléphonique' et de gestion de données a l'Europe ?
Personnellement je n'en vois pas à court terme, ni même à moins... Et aucune volonté industrielle ou politique à long terme (au vue des investissements et du retour sur investissement).
Donc à garder #Android, j'aimerais garder #Fdroid, pour limiter la fuite de mes données sur des serveurs non européens par des entreprises qui exploiteront la vie privée contre mes intérêts.
-
@laic_salocin pas plus cher que les haut de gamme chinois.
-
@andrewnez good topic, great article
