I've been shushing people who say there won't be free #elections in the #USA anymore
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@benroyce @mastodonmigration @dlundh @Asbestos I want a device to summon Ben irl so that whenever I'm having an conversation with someone and it comes up that they don't vote I can sic him on them and watch the ensuing carnage like a bloodsport
@renardboy @mastodonmigration @dlundh @Asbestos
i'm an old man, you'd just watch me get beat up
but if i can hide behind a door i can give them a proper tongue lashing
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might i suggest a perspective shift
I mean i don't differ with anything you say but i think it's important
"The democrats" is not some entity we should consider or even characterize. Simply because that mental framework is not useful and even counterproductive
"The democrats" are just an empty shell we fill with our will (or don't, if we don't vote)
That everything we dislike about the democrats is a direct consequence of the assholes out there who didn't vote
@benroyce The Democrats are an organisation with a small (9 members) committee that determines the policies and direction of the party and a second, slightly larger (65 members) committee that runs things day-to-day. When was the last time you voted in a Democratic National Committee election? Or an Executive Committee one? They set the rules for how primaries and caucuses are run, they run the fundraisers. Average, everyday Americans get effectively zero say in the makeup of those committees.
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@benroyce The Democrats are an organisation with a small (9 members) committee that determines the policies and direction of the party and a second, slightly larger (65 members) committee that runs things day-to-day. When was the last time you voted in a Democratic National Committee election? Or an Executive Committee one? They set the rules for how primaries and caucuses are run, they run the fundraisers. Average, everyday Americans get effectively zero say in the makeup of those committees.
if enough showed the fuck up, all of that would be working for us
that the democratic party does not, and serves spineless centrists, is a direct consequence of not enough showing up to vote
what i'm saying is that this organizational inertia argument is real, as you say, but it's essentially nothing but a reflection of our will. *if* we show the fuck up
bad candidates do not lead to low voter turn out
well, they do, but more accurately:
low voter turn out leads to bad candidates
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you always fight
and the fight has many avenues
voting is just one of the avenues
and morons who ignore it are failing simple strategy and tactics, and losing the fight
@benroyce @rupert @Asbestos I have long said "EVERY tool in the toolbox" means exactly that.
Also note that even if Trump himself could be on both sides of the ballot, there would be all those referendums and downballot races to consider. It's worth your time for instance to take a few hours to look at every candidate for school board, and find out who is backed by Moms 4 Liberty or other Fundamentalist Christians. Then vote for their opponents, excluding any other extremists calling for things like mass drug testing or more prosecutions for truancy.
The corruption DeSantis had to resort to do defeat an abortion rights referendum in the last election now threatens to derail the rest of his agenda. That referendum got just under the 60% needed to win-and DeathSantis stole millions in taxpayer funds to blanket the airwaves with deceptive ads against both the abortion and cannabis referendums.
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if enough showed the fuck up, all of that would be working for us
that the democratic party does not, and serves spineless centrists, is a direct consequence of not enough showing up to vote
what i'm saying is that this organizational inertia argument is real, as you say, but it's essentially nothing but a reflection of our will. *if* we show the fuck up
bad candidates do not lead to low voter turn out
well, they do, but more accurately:
low voter turn out leads to bad candidates
@benroyce It's a bit like that, sure, but it would take a long time of everyone showing up to vote to actually make a difference. I can't imagine the DNC as it exists now, allowing candidates more left wing than AOC or Omar. There's only so much voters can do with the system that exists, and that turns people off voting. Personally, I'm a strong proponent of compulsory voting. Don't just make it easier to vote, make it harder not to.
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@benroyce It's a bit like that, sure, but it would take a long time of everyone showing up to vote to actually make a difference. I can't imagine the DNC as it exists now, allowing candidates more left wing than AOC or Omar. There's only so much voters can do with the system that exists, and that turns people off voting. Personally, I'm a strong proponent of compulsory voting. Don't just make it easier to vote, make it harder not to.
right but imagining something better is easy. delivering on it takes sustained effort. so we have to fucking vote
it's a nasty analogy but it's true:
MAGA took over the Republicans. called centrist Republicans "RINOs" (Republicans in name only). hollowed out the shitty party and made it something much more shitty: fascism
we can take over and remake the dems as well
it's a shitty analogy because i hate any comparison to MAGA but it's a demonstration that sustained voting works
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@benroyce @rupert @Asbestos This is why you prepare to fight no matter who wins the election. In the election itself you are attempting to choose the weakest of several opponents.
In 2016, nobody thought Trump could actually win. Problem was, Trump and Hillery Clinton were BOTH candidates considered "unelectable" by conventional wisdom. If two unelectable candidates face each other in a US style general electio, both of them become electable folks!
Right up to Nov 8 2016, we were all preparing to fight Hillery Clinton and the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal. We all hoped to hell Trump was stopped, but we knew we'd still have a tough fight ahead no matter what. That TPP may have benefited Trump: both candidates claimed to oppose it (a big win for the anti-WTO movement), but many white working class US voters expected Hillery to go back on her word. Obama had been a big booster of this treaty, chock full of the usual GMO, drug patent, and even US cigarette export provisions promoted by USTR.
The other big fight was Standing Rock, we had already sunk the Keystone XL. Heroes stood their ground at Standing Rock and slowed the project to a crawl as the world looked on. We had it beat, it was to be another KXL.
Then we got the worst possible surprise: Trump "won" the election! Instantly Standing Rock become almost impossible to win. The TPP was gone, but a vicious campaign of racism and hate was coming. On top of all else, Trump packed the Supreme Court, putting in cronies like "Frat Boy" Kavanagh and "Handmaid" Amy Coney Barrett. "Witchburner" Samuel Alito was already there thanks to GW Bush.
A year and a half after Trump left office post J6, Trump's SCOTUS picks threw out Roe V Wade. The resulting abortion laws were quickly castrated by the abortion pill networks, but this decision also unleashed a wave of anti-LGBTQ hate that is still going on today.
I think a lot of us in 2016 were looking downfield at the end zone without first having the football caught and securely tucked away prior to taking off running.
@benroyce @rupert @Asbestos @LukefromDC thank you, yes, as someone who's been a pragmatic movement person for years...yes
I had some serious fights with the Biden administration, I know they weren't my friends
but they also resourced some things I found extremely useful, as opposed to this "knock everything over and piss on it" strategy we saw last year from the feds
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right but imagining something better is easy. delivering on it takes sustained effort. so we have to fucking vote
it's a nasty analogy but it's true:
MAGA took over the Republicans. called centrist Republicans "RINOs" (Republicans in name only). hollowed out the shitty party and made it something much more shitty: fascism
we can take over and remake the dems as well
it's a shitty analogy because i hate any comparison to MAGA but it's a demonstration that sustained voting works
@benroyce Ooh, I'll disagree with "imagining something better is easy" it seems like it *should* be, but it doesn't seem to be in practice, especially if we say that Democrats are as left wing as we can hope for. We settle for the Democrats because that's the best of what's currently available, but we need to be telling them that we're not happy with them as they currently stand. I want to vote for actually progressive candidates, not just for the people who aren't literally evil.
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@benroyce Ooh, I'll disagree with "imagining something better is easy" it seems like it *should* be, but it doesn't seem to be in practice, especially if we say that Democrats are as left wing as we can hope for. We settle for the Democrats because that's the best of what's currently available, but we need to be telling them that we're not happy with them as they currently stand. I want to vote for actually progressive candidates, not just for the people who aren't literally evil.
two things:
1. i was directly referencing your suggestion for compulsory voting. i agree. and? well to get it we have to show the fuck up. idea -> action. however easy or not the idea is is meaningless without the action
2. "we need to be telling them that we're not happy with them as they currently stand." right. but what is that? whining online or writing emails that get canned fake responses? that "telling" your referring to is our vote. vote them the fuck out. that's telling them
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I've been shushing people who say there won't be free #elections in the #USA anymore
#Cynicism leads to #prematureCapitulation: "if the #vote is corrupt, why vote"
Americans are lazy about voting as it is. Weak whiny "the sky is falling!" statements just because malicious intent exists is enough to make some give up
Besides, elections are controlled by the states
On that note (they won't succeed):
"#Trump urges #Republicans to 'take over' and 'nationalize' voting"
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-urges-republicans-nationalize-voting/story?id=129793658
@benroyce If the election is corrupted, be ready for a lot of new recruits the day after election day! If you sow defeatism those recruits won't be coming as they will be resigned not pissed off and motivated.
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@benroyce If the election is corrupted, be ready for a lot of new recruits the day after election day! If you sow defeatism those recruits won't be coming as they will be resigned not pissed off and motivated.
also if no one shows up to vote, and someone starts shooting: "why are they shooting? beats me. feds say it's terrorists. whatever"
but if we all show up to vote and the feds say "trump won a third term" we know it's bullshit. then when someone starts shooting in this scenario: "they're shooting because of the fascist lies! this is the fight! everyone join in!"
the vote provides the clarity of the people's will. without it, there is no clarity and all is lost
we have to vote
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two things:
1. i was directly referencing your suggestion for compulsory voting. i agree. and? well to get it we have to show the fuck up. idea -> action. however easy or not the idea is is meaningless without the action
2. "we need to be telling them that we're not happy with them as they currently stand." right. but what is that? whining online or writing emails that get canned fake responses? that "telling" your referring to is our vote. vote them the fuck out. that's telling them
@benroyce
1. I agree with having to show up to get changes made. I brought it up because I'm not saying that we shouldn't vote for Democrats because they suck, a lot of non-voters (or third-party voters) think that way.2. I mean, for a start, by not calling them left wing. You can't vote people out, you can only vote people in, and the people running as Democrats are usually centrists. I literally can't tell them through voting because the people who represent my ideals aren't in the race.
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@benroyce
1. I agree with having to show up to get changes made. I brought it up because I'm not saying that we shouldn't vote for Democrats because they suck, a lot of non-voters (or third-party voters) think that way.2. I mean, for a start, by not calling them left wing. You can't vote people out, you can only vote people in, and the people running as Democrats are usually centrists. I literally can't tell them through voting because the people who represent my ideals aren't in the race.
"a lot of non-voters (or third-party voters) think that way."
right because they're morons. of course the dems suck. because the morons don't vote
"You can't vote people out, you can only vote people in, and the people running as Democrats are usually centrists"
because no one shows up in the primaries. how did mamdani get in, despite no support from the dem org? because people showed the fuck up
people not voting is the *cause*, not the *effect*
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"a lot of non-voters (or third-party voters) think that way."
right because they're morons. of course the dems suck. because the morons don't vote
"You can't vote people out, you can only vote people in, and the people running as Democrats are usually centrists"
because no one shows up in the primaries. how did mamdani get in, despite no support from the dem org? because people showed the fuck up
people not voting is the *cause*, not the *effect*
stop thinking of establishment dems as some alien omnipotent force that must be interacted with. in fact they're quite weak. just fucking ignore them
stop thinking of the establishment at all. you build it up to be this insurmountable enemy. it's an illusion that causes inaction
we show the fuck up in the primaries, and then we just own the joint. that's it
it all depends upon people showing the fuck up. beginning and ending of the topic
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"a lot of non-voters (or third-party voters) think that way."
right because they're morons. of course the dems suck. because the morons don't vote
"You can't vote people out, you can only vote people in, and the people running as Democrats are usually centrists"
because no one shows up in the primaries. how did mamdani get in, despite no support from the dem org? because people showed the fuck up
people not voting is the *cause*, not the *effect*
@benroyce Yeah, I agree with all that. The only thing I really disagree with you on is calling the Democrats left-wing. I'd allow "center-left" but I'd still strongly disagree with that categorisation, they are center-right. Just being less right wing than the Nazis doesn't make them left, it just makes them less right.
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This whole era has taught me so many on the right are ignorant bigots. Which you could say I should have known and I agree but I did expect more infighting and not such vast meek complicit silence from so called "patriotic conservatives" against obvious fascism
But also much more sadly many on the left are impotent spineless whiners who won't fight
Vote. Protest
Wringing your hands and paralyzed in mindless cynicism and toxic idealism is just pure loser
Swedish comedian and singer (and general mensch) Ronny Eriksson once joked about the difference between pessimists and optimists. When the pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse than this!" the optimist answers: "Yes it can!"
I thought about this quote a lot when I saw american progressives talking about not voting in the last election. Or Swedish leftists talking about that who is the american president doesn't matter.
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@benroyce Yeah, I agree with all that. The only thing I really disagree with you on is calling the Democrats left-wing. I'd allow "center-left" but I'd still strongly disagree with that categorisation, they are center-right. Just being less right wing than the Nazis doesn't make them left, it just makes them less right.
there is an ideological center and two parties to either side of it
that this is all much further right than we both want has no meaning. there is a left, because it is the left-er choice
to make it further left, we show up, we sustain, we iterate
there is no other option, and bemoaning things are so far right has no effective or actionable point, and in fact leads to inaction and stasis
it is like this, because the left doesn't fucking vote
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there is an ideological center and two parties to either side of it
that this is all much further right than we both want has no meaning. there is a left, because it is the left-er choice
to make it further left, we show up, we sustain, we iterate
there is no other option, and bemoaning things are so far right has no effective or actionable point, and in fact leads to inaction and stasis
it is like this, because the left doesn't fucking vote
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there is an ideological center and two parties to either side of it
that this is all much further right than we both want has no meaning. there is a left, because it is the left-er choice
to make it further left, we show up, we sustain, we iterate
there is no other option, and bemoaning things are so far right has no effective or actionable point, and in fact leads to inaction and stasis
it is like this, because the left doesn't fucking vote
@benroyce It's not bemoaning things to call the democrats center-right. I'm still voting for them because to do otherwise it's ludicrous. I just disagree with calling them something they're not. Political left and political right are not relative, they have definite meanings and the Democrats simply do not qualify as left wing. That's not to say that they can't become left, the Republicans switched sides after all, but right now they aren't.
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stop thinking of establishment dems as some alien omnipotent force that must be interacted with. in fact they're quite weak. just fucking ignore them
stop thinking of the establishment at all. you build it up to be this insurmountable enemy. it's an illusion that causes inaction
we show the fuck up in the primaries, and then we just own the joint. that's it
it all depends upon people showing the fuck up. beginning and ending of the topic
You might find this article interesting. It shows how compulsory voting in Australia led to policy shifts in government that benefited those on low incomes, pretty much vindicating everything you've been saying about why high voter turnout matters so much.
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@LaVi dipende dall' uso che se ne fa
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@jerzone for a second I thought it was a neutrino detector.
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@andre123 @oblomov @d10c4n3 aggiungo una cosa: ma alla fine, dopo 70 80 100 anni su sta terra, non ci si stanca di vivere? i vecchietti a un certo punto accettano la morte con filosofia come naturale fine della loro esistenza ma anche fossimo in salute e eternamente giovani non ci verrebbe a noia la vita dopo 100 o 200 anni, anche fossimo le persone più curiose del mondo? perchè a me sì sono sicuro che verrebbe a noia. a volte mi viene a noia anche ora che ne ho "solo" 45.
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@fredpencil75 Viva la Panda 4x4!
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Quarta modalità: quando pensi di fare il furbo col medico fiscale 😉
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@cicciofritz Anche da Browser?
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