#ThoughtProvoker 🤔
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@smallcircles nope, wrong. You’ve conflated your personal memory and secondary documention about others with the primary record. You can have the former — it’s yours — but not the latter. Moral rights are the author’s in each case. You author and own a memory and representations of it, not the original source.
That is the nice thing of the #ThoughtProvoker hashtag. Leaves it to anyone to have and express an opinion, and those discussion hopeful input to social experience design of our collective social web. I agree with your Should/Shall/Will on the other post. Thank you for your replies.
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@smallcircles
What does “delete” mean in this context-Delete the record so no one on the internet can access it after a certain point in time?
I comprehend “delete” request to remove access from public Internet, not whatever a person’s replicated in private notes/server.
Surely it does not mean delete any dated references in:
Screenshots, quotations in notes, books, etc.I’d like to have a single person server as a publish once, share syndicate everywhere(POSSE) & would keep the dialogue
Yes. I think you are asking exactly the right question:"What does it mean in this context?"
Many replies to the #poll ponder related questions, or state an "it depends". It is clear there's a lot of nuance and edge cases.
Reformulated, how delete should work is solution-specific, depends on domain, use cases, and stakeholders in SX terms.
And Delete activity in #ActivityStreams is not the well-understood part of #ActivityPub it is treated as today. See also:
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@smallcircles if a user can get sued for making a post (i know they can, i don't need precedent to claim this), it's because the activitypub protocol is understood to be representative of its users' speech, which is an incredibly powerful responsibility to assume
Yes, a great thought train. There's so much in here that deserves deeper thought. This is why Social experience design is really important, imho, bringing a new perspective to look at social networking.
In my Grassroots fediverse evolution blog post I make an argument for @EUCommission to fund social web innovation, like the @NGIZero programs via @nlnet, to broaden the eligibility for initiatives that pay attention to the social side, beyond the pure tech R&D. Focus on social supply chains, and bridge the gap to where people's needs are satisfied.
https://coding.social/blog/grassroots-evolution/#challenges-of-standardization
The app-centric approach to fediverse evolution makes it really, really hard for good social support online to emerge over time. Because the app is an unnatural silo to slice things, a random bag of features collected by its owners / interest group.
Re:Identity. How identity is dealt with today is another example of protocol decay. I would treat it differently too, and still be AP compliant :D
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In daily life, if you talk to someone, you have the right to remember what was said, right?
And if you don't possess photographic memory, you have the right to take notes, keep record, maintain a diary, yes?
And no one has the right to order you to forget your memories, or under normal circumstances to destroy your notes?
So if you have a single-person #fediverse instance, it is okay then to ignore #ActivityPub Delete requests to erase your memory of online public conversations you had with others?
I think the general rule should be it's not OK to show something publicly after receiving a delete request. Keeping it privately in its original form is not ethically different from keeping a private screenshot of something seen anywhere online which is later removed.
If something is newsworthy, like a public figure posting slurs or threats, then overriding their delete request and continuing to show it publicly seems justifiable.
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Yes, a great thought train. There's so much in here that deserves deeper thought. This is why Social experience design is really important, imho, bringing a new perspective to look at social networking.
In my Grassroots fediverse evolution blog post I make an argument for @EUCommission to fund social web innovation, like the @NGIZero programs via @nlnet, to broaden the eligibility for initiatives that pay attention to the social side, beyond the pure tech R&D. Focus on social supply chains, and bridge the gap to where people's needs are satisfied.
https://coding.social/blog/grassroots-evolution/#challenges-of-standardization
The app-centric approach to fediverse evolution makes it really, really hard for good social support online to emerge over time. Because the app is an unnatural silo to slice things, a random bag of features collected by its owners / interest group.
Re:Identity. How identity is dealt with today is another example of protocol decay. I would treat it differently too, and still be AP compliant :D
@hipsterelectron @EUCommission @NGIZero @nlnet
Curious to learn more about @SRAZKVT approach.
For Social experience design I defined a number of so-called SX formula's. These are long-running themes within a commons where value is being created and aggregated that follow a shared vision.
One such formula is "Joyful creation" which in the narrow form (which is actually super broad already) envisions how the FSDL, the Free software development lifecycle or Fediverse solution delivery lifecycle depending on context, can be natively supported on the social network.
The broader version of this formula deals with how *any* cocreation can be supported online, i.e. beyond just the "Software development" domain.
Where it comes to code forges, for instance, app focus is a big hindrance I think, to coming up with innovative social experiences. In a way a code forge explicitly leaves out the social component in the app design, offering categorized lists of tasks, leaves process to be manual.
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In daily life, if you talk to someone, you have the right to remember what was said, right?
And if you don't possess photographic memory, you have the right to take notes, keep record, maintain a diary, yes?
And no one has the right to order you to forget your memories, or under normal circumstances to destroy your notes?
So if you have a single-person #fediverse instance, it is okay then to ignore #ActivityPub Delete requests to erase your memory of online public conversations you had with others?
@smallcircles Conversations offline are ephemeral unless explicitly documented/recorded. (In theory with the consent of all participants.) Conversations online should, IMO, also be ephemeral.
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@smallcircles Conversations offline are ephemeral unless explicitly documented/recorded. (In theory with the consent of all participants.) Conversations online should, IMO, also be ephemeral.
Yes, you are correct in saying that. But also in offline contexts we switch contiuously between different communication modes, and when it is time to note things down we bring pen and paper to bear.
Here online on the microbloggoverse, we try to cram all modes of communication onto a fleety microblog sticky-notes-on-a-fridge channel, and add more and more bells and whistles to try to support all the edge cases.
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@hipsterelectron @EUCommission @NGIZero @nlnet
Curious to learn more about @SRAZKVT approach.
For Social experience design I defined a number of so-called SX formula's. These are long-running themes within a commons where value is being created and aggregated that follow a shared vision.
One such formula is "Joyful creation" which in the narrow form (which is actually super broad already) envisions how the FSDL, the Free software development lifecycle or Fediverse solution delivery lifecycle depending on context, can be natively supported on the social network.
The broader version of this formula deals with how *any* cocreation can be supported online, i.e. beyond just the "Software development" domain.
Where it comes to code forges, for instance, app focus is a big hindrance I think, to coming up with innovative social experiences. In a way a code forge explicitly leaves out the social component in the app design, offering categorized lists of tasks, leaves process to be manual.
@hipsterelectron @EUCommission @NGIZero @nlnet @SRAZKVT
Just found @aral related poll about Delete on moderated multi-person instances, to which I responded with similar lines of thought..
https://social.coop/@smallcircles/116545112371155929
Without proper attention to the social side, and with current app-centric post-facto interoperability approach the only thing that can be created is a fediverse that represents a technical switch box, where app devs plug in their platform device and deal with the sparks that sends flying to the extent needed for the app.
A huge innovation potential is missed this way. To reimagine social. Envision a peopleverse.
ForgeFed is a good example. It needs a different approach going forwards from where it is now. Rather than focus on the lowest common denominator between code forge apps, it should bring support for software development to become native to the social web. In other words become open standard ActivityPub extension for a business domain, not an application domain.
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@hipsterelectron @EUCommission @NGIZero @nlnet @SRAZKVT
Just found @aral related poll about Delete on moderated multi-person instances, to which I responded with similar lines of thought..
https://social.coop/@smallcircles/116545112371155929
Without proper attention to the social side, and with current app-centric post-facto interoperability approach the only thing that can be created is a fediverse that represents a technical switch box, where app devs plug in their platform device and deal with the sparks that sends flying to the extent needed for the app.
A huge innovation potential is missed this way. To reimagine social. Envision a peopleverse.
ForgeFed is a good example. It needs a different approach going forwards from where it is now. Rather than focus on the lowest common denominator between code forge apps, it should bring support for software development to become native to the social web. In other words become open standard ActivityPub extension for a business domain, not an application domain.
@smallcircles @hipsterelectron activitypub isn't a good base for development because most of it requires to have the entirety of the content to make an informed decision, and activitypub doesn't guarantee that
(same reason as to why activitypub is a bad for for instant messaging and for forums)
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@smallcircles @hipsterelectron activitypub isn't a good base for development because most of it requires to have the entirety of the content to make an informed decision, and activitypub doesn't guarantee that
(same reason as to why activitypub is a bad for for instant messaging and for forums)
@SRAZKVT @smallcircles @hipsterelectron it's almost like the protocol made basically for microblogging, which is by all usage, quite ephemeral, isn't a good protocol for non-ephemeral things -
@SRAZKVT @smallcircles @hipsterelectron it's almost like the protocol made basically for microblogging, which is by all usage, quite ephemeral, isn't a good protocol for non-ephemeral things
@navi @hipsterelectron @smallcircles i consider chat to be a non ephemeral thing, but it also requires the entirety of the context, which is why it's bad
same for forums
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@SRAZKVT @smallcircles @hipsterelectron it's almost like the protocol made basically for microblogging, which is by all usage, quite ephemeral, isn't a good protocol for non-ephemeral things
@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
In the past I have called AP et al a protocol framework, rather than a network protocol specification as we usually understand them. It is a box of building blocks, and it is actual solution design where particular use cases are to be fleshed out in terms of wire formats, message exchange patterns, and business logic.
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@navi @hipsterelectron @smallcircles i consider chat to be a non ephemeral thing, but it also requires the entirety of the context, which is why it's bad
same for forums
@SRAZKVT @hipsterelectron @smallcircles
for me personal chats are non-ephemeral, but public chats should be ephemeral (which is why i'm find with irc for communities, while it's not great for 1:1 chats (tho this doesn't mean i want an AP-based irc-like, no thanks)
forums are non-ephemeral by design, imo -
@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
In the past I have called AP et al a protocol framework, rather than a network protocol specification as we usually understand them. It is a box of building blocks, and it is actual solution design where particular use cases are to be fleshed out in terms of wire formats, message exchange patterns, and business logic.
@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
The only issue is that it isn't specified how to use this framework, and everyone gives their own interpretation and approach to it now, or copies from others. This is part of the very costly "misconceptions" that aren't addressed.
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@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
In the past I have called AP et al a protocol framework, rather than a network protocol specification as we usually understand them. It is a box of building blocks, and it is actual solution design where particular use cases are to be fleshed out in terms of wire formats, message exchange patterns, and business logic.
@smallcircles @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
that would be more useful if the core wasn't basically "email but with json" -
@SRAZKVT @hipsterelectron @smallcircles
for me personal chats are non-ephemeral, but public chats should be ephemeral (which is why i'm find with irc for communities, while it's not great for 1:1 chats (tho this doesn't mean i want an AP-based irc-like, no thanks)
forums are non-ephemeral by design, imo@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
The most important point in my blog post on Grassroots fediverse evolution is that imo the way we talk about the social web, influenced by the ActivityPub implementations that exist, gradually lead to AP narrowing itself in to very specific areas, and thereby losing most of its promise and power.
https://coding.social/blog/grassroots-evolution
ActivityPub offers decentralized addressable actors that exchange activities with an object payload. All fully extensible.
And then we have the fediverse that is somehow totally dominated by Microblogging, just one tiny sub-domain of "Social networking", and an app domain at that, not a business domain. Same with forums, another app domain.
All the protocol decay that crept in over time, forms a huge restriction, and a barrier to innovation. It does not make ActivityPub attractive for people to adopt as a technology, unless they happen to have an interest in these specific app domains.
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@smallcircles @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
that would be more useful if the core wasn't basically "email but with json"@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
What I think is a very powerful perspective to take is to treat the network as an actor-based, mostly event-driven, service-oriented architecture.
I only took some notes thus far (the social coding forum serves as a note-taking tool) ..
https://discuss.coding.social/t/protosocial-activitypub-protocol/665
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@django that is a good "other" choice. The delete request is processed to add a marker to the note, as an update and reminder of the preference of the original sender. So it allows for the "politeness" aspect that @ireneista mentioned on the other reply.
https://adhd.irenes.space/@ireneista/statuses/01KR5H4ZY3CMFYV3N6R3Z6R9CA
@smallcircles @ireneista beyond the single-user instance. What if not every memory is worth keeping? for example a debate veering into ad hominem, would you even want to keep something said and regretted, or others to do the same?
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@smallcircles@social.coop thank you, glad im not alone in thinking that "other person can delete my chatlogs" is awful. i should be able to opt out, possibly with a big red "this user does not accept delete requests" notice.
@nycki @smallcircles I distinguish between 'I'm not going to federate this/spread this post to other servers' vs 'I'm not going to display this in the public facing portion of my archives' vs 'I'm going to actually delete this from my own private archives'. I'll accept different reasons from someone else requesting I delete depending on which. In past social media systems screenshots and archive folders had to fill in for part of this, but I would hope with things like AP we can do better.
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@nycki @smallcircles I distinguish between 'I'm not going to federate this/spread this post to other servers' vs 'I'm not going to display this in the public facing portion of my archives' vs 'I'm going to actually delete this from my own private archives'. I'll accept different reasons from someone else requesting I delete depending on which. In past social media systems screenshots and archive folders had to fill in for part of this, but I would hope with things like AP we can do better.
@nycki @smallcircles But the general 'eh, I just want you to delete it' I would only want to honour for the first of those options.
One more project on the yak stack haha (to write an AP server that can be configured to work that way, with 'posts that federate', 'posts that are viewable on the web but do not federate', and 'private post archive', and eg 'delete request' just by default changes the federate -> non-federate, and maybe a flow for manual actual delete accept).
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