#ThoughtProvoker 🤔
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@SRAZKVT @smallcircles @hipsterelectron it's almost like the protocol made basically for microblogging, which is by all usage, quite ephemeral, isn't a good protocol for non-ephemeral things
@navi @hipsterelectron @smallcircles i consider chat to be a non ephemeral thing, but it also requires the entirety of the context, which is why it's bad
same for forums
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@SRAZKVT @smallcircles @hipsterelectron it's almost like the protocol made basically for microblogging, which is by all usage, quite ephemeral, isn't a good protocol for non-ephemeral things
@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
In the past I have called AP et al a protocol framework, rather than a network protocol specification as we usually understand them. It is a box of building blocks, and it is actual solution design where particular use cases are to be fleshed out in terms of wire formats, message exchange patterns, and business logic.
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@navi @hipsterelectron @smallcircles i consider chat to be a non ephemeral thing, but it also requires the entirety of the context, which is why it's bad
same for forums
@SRAZKVT @hipsterelectron @smallcircles
for me personal chats are non-ephemeral, but public chats should be ephemeral (which is why i'm find with irc for communities, while it's not great for 1:1 chats (tho this doesn't mean i want an AP-based irc-like, no thanks)
forums are non-ephemeral by design, imo -
@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
In the past I have called AP et al a protocol framework, rather than a network protocol specification as we usually understand them. It is a box of building blocks, and it is actual solution design where particular use cases are to be fleshed out in terms of wire formats, message exchange patterns, and business logic.
@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
The only issue is that it isn't specified how to use this framework, and everyone gives their own interpretation and approach to it now, or copies from others. This is part of the very costly "misconceptions" that aren't addressed.
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@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
In the past I have called AP et al a protocol framework, rather than a network protocol specification as we usually understand them. It is a box of building blocks, and it is actual solution design where particular use cases are to be fleshed out in terms of wire formats, message exchange patterns, and business logic.
@smallcircles @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
that would be more useful if the core wasn't basically "email but with json" -
@SRAZKVT @hipsterelectron @smallcircles
for me personal chats are non-ephemeral, but public chats should be ephemeral (which is why i'm find with irc for communities, while it's not great for 1:1 chats (tho this doesn't mean i want an AP-based irc-like, no thanks)
forums are non-ephemeral by design, imo@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
The most important point in my blog post on Grassroots fediverse evolution is that imo the way we talk about the social web, influenced by the ActivityPub implementations that exist, gradually lead to AP narrowing itself in to very specific areas, and thereby losing most of its promise and power.
https://coding.social/blog/grassroots-evolution
ActivityPub offers decentralized addressable actors that exchange activities with an object payload. All fully extensible.
And then we have the fediverse that is somehow totally dominated by Microblogging, just one tiny sub-domain of "Social networking", and an app domain at that, not a business domain. Same with forums, another app domain.
All the protocol decay that crept in over time, forms a huge restriction, and a barrier to innovation. It does not make ActivityPub attractive for people to adopt as a technology, unless they happen to have an interest in these specific app domains.
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@smallcircles @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
that would be more useful if the core wasn't basically "email but with json"@navi @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT
What I think is a very powerful perspective to take is to treat the network as an actor-based, mostly event-driven, service-oriented architecture.
I only took some notes thus far (the social coding forum serves as a note-taking tool) ..
https://discuss.coding.social/t/protosocial-activitypub-protocol/665
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@django that is a good "other" choice. The delete request is processed to add a marker to the note, as an update and reminder of the preference of the original sender. So it allows for the "politeness" aspect that @ireneista mentioned on the other reply.
https://adhd.irenes.space/@ireneista/statuses/01KR5H4ZY3CMFYV3N6R3Z6R9CA
@smallcircles @ireneista beyond the single-user instance. What if not every memory is worth keeping? for example a debate veering into ad hominem, would you even want to keep something said and regretted, or others to do the same?
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@smallcircles@social.coop thank you, glad im not alone in thinking that "other person can delete my chatlogs" is awful. i should be able to opt out, possibly with a big red "this user does not accept delete requests" notice.
@nycki @smallcircles I distinguish between 'I'm not going to federate this/spread this post to other servers' vs 'I'm not going to display this in the public facing portion of my archives' vs 'I'm going to actually delete this from my own private archives'. I'll accept different reasons from someone else requesting I delete depending on which. In past social media systems screenshots and archive folders had to fill in for part of this, but I would hope with things like AP we can do better.
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@nycki @smallcircles I distinguish between 'I'm not going to federate this/spread this post to other servers' vs 'I'm not going to display this in the public facing portion of my archives' vs 'I'm going to actually delete this from my own private archives'. I'll accept different reasons from someone else requesting I delete depending on which. In past social media systems screenshots and archive folders had to fill in for part of this, but I would hope with things like AP we can do better.
@nycki @smallcircles But the general 'eh, I just want you to delete it' I would only want to honour for the first of those options.
One more project on the yak stack haha (to write an AP server that can be configured to work that way, with 'posts that federate', 'posts that are viewable on the web but do not federate', and 'private post archive', and eg 'delete request' just by default changes the federate -> non-federate, and maybe a flow for manual actual delete accept).
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