I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall @liaizon maybe I did! For "anarchist" I get it. For anti capitalist that doesn't make sense to me. Nothing prevents anybody at the protocol level from monetizing access to their API or other aspect of their server. No matter federated or not.

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao @liaizon

... I don't know how to respond to this. I'm genuinely agog.

You're literally posting from a FOSS-todon.org account and you're talking about monetization.

I think part of the reason you may be catching so much flak right now is that it _seems_ like you're expecting an audience for a technical discussion and what you've found is a social discussion.

These things _are not_ equal.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall @liaizon I have a strong dislike of how strongly the ActivityPub crowd think about anticapitalism and anti-VC to the point the network feels so toxic in this regard that nobody with differing opinions would even join and stay.
It's not just the OP, it's pervasive across the network.

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao @liaizon

You may find folks who are interested purely in the technical aspects of your project but you are _certainly_ going to find folks who take a dislike to the monetization mindset.

I, for one, have no interest in participating in a project that _demands_ a financial commitment. I strongly suspect this is the crux of the resistance you're encountering.

I donate to my instance because I _respect_ the effort that goes into maintaining and running an instance.

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao @liaizon

We generally consider this a feature not a bug.

I'd say we're on different pages but I honestly believe we're not even reading from the same book.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall @liaizon my friend you have a problem with the definition of open source and free software. It has NEVER meant anything regarding monetization AT ALL. This is a complete misunderstanding. Free software != Free as in free beer. It's neutral to monetization. How do you think Nextcloud makes money if not by monetizing their FOSS?

I wrote this a long time ago. Good refresher, still relevant: https://github.com/baozi-technology/baozi-web/blob/master/content%2F09-11-2019%2Findex.md

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao @liaizon

We're simply going to disagree on this. I'm not bothered by any dissonance you find in my perspective.

If the only thing free in your project is the client and not the tools to _build_ a network you're not building free software.

I'm trying to tell you every way possible that I'm 98% confident your fixation on monetization is what's creating the conflict.

You can tell me I'm _wrong_ all you like. It doesn't eliminate that position as a source of conflict.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall @liaizon yeah, I'm not interested in echo chambers if that's what you mean. What's the point of a social network if you're just talking with people who have the same opinion as you?

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao @liaizon

We don't _all_ have the same opinion about everything. We do disagree.

I think it's surprising that you're surprised there's a group of people who disagree with you and say so and you _seem_ take issue with it.

... Are you saying the reason you get on the internet is to disagree with people? Or to challenge your own assumptions?

Because so far... You don't appear to be receptive to any disagreement with your perspective.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall @liaizon I'm very happy to agree to disagree on the opinions.

Though about what I said on the definition of what Free Software actually means, it's not an opinion but a fact.

But I respect that you think software should only be public good and receive exclusively donations of good will, if I understand well?

We can agree to disagree respectfully!

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall @liaizon I really don't take any issue with you disagreeing with me Matt. I can see the value of a social network where communities form and govern themselves in echo chambers. I don't see the value of it in Twitter form. As a slack/matrix/discord chat room, that makes more sense to me.

The only issue I took earlier was about the misrepresentation of my thoughts (which was partially my fault). Many people thought I was talking about Palestine.

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao

I don't think that's the _only_ space in which software should exist. I think it's the appropriate space for open-source software.

I make a living selling my services as a developer. I'm not opposed to that.

Everything has _nuance_. No rule is applicable in _every_ situation. I just think that in the matter of social networks we're seeing a significant backlash towards corporate social media. I'm not surprised to see that frustration _shared_ here on a non-corporate platform.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall I completely share the ideal of a public-good community owned social network. I just don't think it's the *only* way forward. And it's far from easy to sustain. You still need to fundraise money for the foundation to maintain the software etc. I think there is potentially a better way. I may be wrong.

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao

<shrug> Look, that's what I thought you were saying initially.

Clarity is hard in written form.

Anyway, I hope you have success with your project. I like that people are thinking about the problem of communication. If you're willing to share your work with the world and that the context you want to work in. I think that's a good thing.

[401matthall@mastodon.xyz]

@nicobao

I hear that. I really do.

I think we could spend a lot of time defining what _better_ means.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@401matthall I really appreciate the kind words. Yes that tweet of mine was poorly phrased, and mildly offensive for people in the ActivityPub space. I reckon it was wrongly put.

[liaizon@social.wake.st]

@nicobao @401matthall I think you would do yourself a big favor if you read up on anti-capitalism. Being anti-capitalist does not mean one doesn't deserve to be payed for their labor. It doesn't mean one doesn't fundraise or use money as an exchange of goods or services.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@liaizon @401matthall any recommendations for reading materials?
I think it's pretty objective to say there is a problem between funding public goods versus venture capital where most of the money is. It's well studied and I've read a bit about it already. I'm all for alternative forms of financing. That's why I'm interested in the crypto space as well. I'm happy to learn about new ways to co-finance public goods sustainably.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@adriano @squeakypancakes @liaizon the only problem I had was misinterpreting my point and saying I'm pro genocide or stuff like that. It's ok to disagree with me on anarchist/anti capitalist and protocol stuff since that's what I called for.

[anton@99finches.com]

@liaizon @nicobao nonsense neo-liberal unpolitics

Believing that the systems we have established to channel disagreement into Not Murder™ will somehow always inherently cease to function if consensus is impossible. While also allowing democratic mechanisms that ensure Not Murder™ to be undermined by never allowing the replacement unpopular policy arrangements, through consistently calling for moderation whenever anyone suggests that the status quo needs fundamental change of any kind whatsoever