Would you like to see full default interoperability between #ATproto and #ActivityPub without a bridge?
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@evan @wjmaggos you're making a category error, Evan.
People who aren't us don't give even the tiniest shits about which protocols they're using. 5G phones happily talk to 2G phones over SS7, and the only thing anyone knows about "5G" is that it's "fast" – and they don't even know what that means.
You just said approx. "that doesn't make any sense; it's like saying that you want NG-RAN and SS7 to be mutually intelligible" and people will care about as much as someone who literally says that.
@evan @wjmaggos (i.e. not at all)
It makes plenty sense to make BlueSky and Mastodon interoperable, even if it involves protocol-level translation. Doing so is, frankly, easy, and much easier than the very common approach of translating between Spanish and Chinese (which is what we normally do to communicate instead of inventing a Spanish/Chinese pidgin, which is also a thing humans do!).
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@wjmaggos That doesn't make any sense; it's like saying that you want Chinese and Spanish to be mutually intelligible. You could try to combine the two languages into one mixed thing, but that resulting language would be neither Chinese nor Spanish.
evan@cosocial.ca wjmaggos@liberal.city clearly what we need is one final protocol to rule them all /s
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@evan @wjmaggos (i.e. not at all)
It makes plenty sense to make BlueSky and Mastodon interoperable, even if it involves protocol-level translation. Doing so is, frankly, easy, and much easier than the very common approach of translating between Spanish and Chinese (which is what we normally do to communicate instead of inventing a Spanish/Chinese pidgin, which is also a thing humans do!).
@evan @wjmaggos where the real "human-level" challenge is is that e.g. Mastodon and BlueSky are different, culturally, and so are "the Fediverse" and "Truth Social" and any combination of separate servers that we can imagine, or even two random servers *within* the Mastodon-running-Fediverse. Mastodon and Bluesky are way more similar than Pixelfed, and it makes much less sense to federate Pixelfed and Mastodon than it does Mastodon and Bluesky, because they serve different social purposes.
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@evan @wjmaggos where the real "human-level" challenge is is that e.g. Mastodon and BlueSky are different, culturally, and so are "the Fediverse" and "Truth Social" and any combination of separate servers that we can imagine, or even two random servers *within* the Mastodon-running-Fediverse. Mastodon and Bluesky are way more similar than Pixelfed, and it makes much less sense to federate Pixelfed and Mastodon than it does Mastodon and Bluesky, because they serve different social purposes.
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@evan @wjmaggos (i.e. not at all)
It makes plenty sense to make BlueSky and Mastodon interoperable, even if it involves protocol-level translation. Doing so is, frankly, easy, and much easier than the very common approach of translating between Spanish and Chinese (which is what we normally do to communicate instead of inventing a Spanish/Chinese pidgin, which is also a thing humans do!).
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@evan @wjmaggos you're making a category error, Evan.
People who aren't us don't give even the tiniest shits about which protocols they're using. 5G phones happily talk to 2G phones over SS7, and the only thing anyone knows about "5G" is that it's "fast" – and they don't even know what that means.
You just said approx. "that doesn't make any sense; it's like saying that you want NG-RAN and SS7 to be mutually intelligible" and people will care about as much as someone who literally says that.
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@evan @wjmaggos it's not my message. My message to technologists was "the key piece of interop for humans is identity" and I was told "webfinger isn't part of activitypub" and "domain names are how we do identity on the internet" (despite the idea that paying $25/year to get to manage DNS isn't an end-user-achievable thing in the world we live in) and after years of this I gave up. It makes me sad that Bluesky went with domain names because consistent format really matters, but 🤷♂️
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@evan @wjmaggos it's not my message. My message to technologists was "the key piece of interop for humans is identity" and I was told "webfinger isn't part of activitypub" and "domain names are how we do identity on the internet" (despite the idea that paying $25/year to get to manage DNS isn't an end-user-achievable thing in the world we live in) and after years of this I gave up. It makes me sad that Bluesky went with domain names because consistent format really matters, but 🤷♂️
@blaine @wjmaggos Webfinger isn't part of ActivityPub, it's true. It is one of the key technologies that we use as part of the stack, though, which is why we have a whole Report about WF + AP.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't add someone's BlueSky account to a Webfinger descriptor. It would be extremely useful for lookup! Do you know if any work has been done on a link-rel for BlueSky addresses?
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so don't we have to propose visions and see which ones make the most sense, are most popular, are compatible?
what's special about social media is the boost. virality. not community or the public square. making it decentralized without algos or ads puts the people fully in control. collectively we can determine what info, ideas and art gets the most attention. I think that's the revolution @rabble talks about. I call it #DemocracyOfReach.
which protocol makes that most likely?
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so don't we have to propose visions and see which ones make the most sense, are most popular, are compatible?
what's special about social media is the boost. virality. not community or the public square. making it decentralized without algos or ads puts the people fully in control. collectively we can determine what info, ideas and art gets the most attention. I think that's the revolution @rabble talks about. I call it #DemocracyOfReach.
which protocol makes that most likely?
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@blaine @wjmaggos The first question asked by the poll is "Would you like to see full default interoperability between #ATproto and #ActivityPub without a bridge?"
The second question is "what's preventing this".
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@blaine @wjmaggos The first question asked by the poll is "Would you like to see full default interoperability between #ATproto and #ActivityPub without a bridge?"
The second question is "what's preventing this".
@evan @wjmaggos you're reading it as a technologist – I agree with you that making atproto and activitypub literally interoperable is ... weird (although, I have argued many times that I think the two protocols will converge in functionality and scope, and also separately that lens-based translation of data structures is basically the best thing and would smooth right over the lexicon/AS differences if we had good tooling).
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@evan @wjmaggos you're reading it as a technologist – I agree with you that making atproto and activitypub literally interoperable is ... weird (although, I have argued many times that I think the two protocols will converge in functionality and scope, and also separately that lens-based translation of data structures is basically the best thing and would smooth right over the lexicon/AS differences if we had good tooling).
@evan @wjmaggos ... but that's not what the question is asking. It's intent, and the #atproto and #activitypub in the question aren't referring to specifications, they're referring to communities.
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@evan @wjmaggos ... but that's not what the question is asking. It's intent, and the #atproto and #activitypub in the question aren't referring to specifications, they're referring to communities.
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Do you want Bluesky and the Fediverse to just be able to talk to each other without 'bridges', however that might happen?
Yes please!!
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There are a lot of application domains where multiple competing protocols prevent growth of the industry as a whole. I'd pick Internet of Things and instant messaging as two good examples.
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Right, which ActivityPub.Space follows and auto categorizes, which ends up as a way for microblog content to make its way into the threadiverse. @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
@silverpill@mitra.social sorry for interjecting 😁
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> @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz said:
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> We could instead try to agree on a separate place for all discussions about fediverse coordination (would it rub anyone up the wrong way if I described this as fediverse governance?). But it does makes sense to discuss a federated network in a federated network, rather than a separate, centralised forum.I keep harping on this one point because it just makes so much sense that it'd be silly not to. The new blood (new software devs implementing AP) always appear on fedi, not some third-party site, first.
To your main point, fedi on Mastodon is all just everybody talking in the same room. Certainly that's why it seems like there's so much meta-discussion about AP.
This isn't the case on the threadiverse, where discussions are segregated/categorized by community.
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@mariusor awesome! ♥️
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@pfefferle I added a PKCE task to my todo list:
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@pfefferle if I'd come up with a scheme for them they would be related to pairs of activityType:objectType entries (instead of a global write), or maybe just the activityType
Ie, Create:Note, Create:Image, Undo, Delete.
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@mariusor yea, I think the scopes and the PKCE part was the issue!
but finally... 😊
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@pfefferle love it! 💗
GoActivityPub doesn't really do "scopes" because I couldn't think of a way store the permissions on the server side in a way that doesn't require custom logic to interact with vanilla ActivityPub objects.
