Nothing but winning.
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@mbpaz @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot US elections are - by far- the most complex in the world. We vote on more things, in more ways, than any other democracy. Automation is essential in practice in US election, in ways that it isn't almost everywhere else.
@mattblaze @mbpaz @dalfen @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
Which is also a problem to watch out for. The complexity of the law helps concentrate power in the hands of people who can afford the services of special clerics whose entire lives are dedicated to memorizing the intricacies.
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@mattblaze @mbpaz @dalfen @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
Which is also a problem to watch out for. The complexity of the law helps concentrate power in the hands of people who can afford the services of special clerics whose entire lives are dedicated to memorizing the intricacies.
@violetmadder @mbpaz @dalfen @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot Well, some things are actually hard, and benefit from the input of experts.
Election law (especially) is an obstacle course full of Chesteron's Fences.
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@dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze
I wonder why electronic voting machines and voting software are necessary at all.
I mean, some software is necessary for summarizing results etc; but as for actual counting, other democracies count votes manually, give (semi) final tallies in just a few hours, and the entire process is extensively audited and leaves detailed trails of every step.@mbpaz @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot @mattblaze I hear you. My state conducts electronic voting but also prints up each voter's choices (which they verify) as a backup in case a recount is needed.
It seems a bit redundant, but backups are important.
Some of the ideas behind electronic voting are to improve efficiency and accuracy. I suppose there is always room for human error when interpreting other humans' hand written ballots. Fraud can also occur there.
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@karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot So the approach of trying to completely secure election software is ultimately a fool's errand. That's why modern techniques like risk-limiting audits are so critical.
@mattblaze @karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
The phrase "completely secure election software" assumes you do every part of the election in software.
IMHO, that's guaranteed-fail.Toronto uses hardware to do a first read of the paper ballots as they get dropped into the box. It saves the data, and reports it by cell phone a few minutes after closing the precinct. Instant results.
The ballots are saved for a manual or judicial recount, so hacking the software only lasts until a random sample is recounted manually. AKA, a risk-limiting audit.
Consider it a safety-critical system, not a computing problem.
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@dalfen @mattblaze @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot We always need to keep in mind that security is best applied in layers.
Many of us are software people and we tend to think in those terms. But hardware is important. I brought a Diebold voting machine to a conference long ago and a person was able to pick the lock in less than ten seconds. Voting hardware is hard - there are a lot of environmental issues, like lack of reliable grounding and angry voters.
Procedures go on top of all of this - how are spoiled ballots declared and handled? How are cross-checks applied to physical media to assure that at the end of the day every piece of paper is accounted for?
And, of course, statistical auditing - it can't prove with absolute God-like authority that bad things happened, but it sure can point a bright light of suggestion.
By-the-way, I had not realized until yesterday that registration was introduced in the 1890s to exclude "undesirable" voters.
@karlauerbach @dalfen @mattblaze @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
Layers! Yes!
It reminds me of the TSA theater shit-- all this song and dance making us take off our shoes, then some kid points out hey actually this door over here isn't even locked, and you can change the HTML on the page where you print out your boarding pass, and got partyvanned for speaking up about it.
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@mattblaze @karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
The phrase "completely secure election software" assumes you do every part of the election in software.
IMHO, that's guaranteed-fail.Toronto uses hardware to do a first read of the paper ballots as they get dropped into the box. It saves the data, and reports it by cell phone a few minutes after closing the precinct. Instant results.
The ballots are saved for a manual or judicial recount, so hacking the software only lasts until a random sample is recounted manually. AKA, a risk-limiting audit.
Consider it a safety-critical system, not a computing problem.
@davecb @karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot No, it does not imply that at all.
But whatever. You all are the experts. I just work here.
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@davecb @karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot No, it does not imply that at all.
But whatever. You all are the experts. I just work here.
@mattblaze @davecb @karlauerbach @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot I'm not an expert in this. I appreciate your input.
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@mattblaze @karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
The phrase "completely secure election software" assumes you do every part of the election in software.
IMHO, that's guaranteed-fail.Toronto uses hardware to do a first read of the paper ballots as they get dropped into the box. It saves the data, and reports it by cell phone a few minutes after closing the precinct. Instant results.
The ballots are saved for a manual or judicial recount, so hacking the software only lasts until a random sample is recounted manually. AKA, a risk-limiting audit.
Consider it a safety-critical system, not a computing problem.
@davecb @mattblaze @karlauerbach @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot Interesting to know what Toronto does. Thank you for sharing.
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@mattblaze @karlauerbach @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot
The phrase "completely secure election software" assumes you do every part of the election in software.
IMHO, that's guaranteed-fail.Toronto uses hardware to do a first read of the paper ballots as they get dropped into the box. It saves the data, and reports it by cell phone a few minutes after closing the precinct. Instant results.
The ballots are saved for a manual or judicial recount, so hacking the software only lasts until a random sample is recounted manually. AKA, a risk-limiting audit.
Consider it a safety-critical system, not a computing problem.
@davecb @mattblaze @dalfen @violetmadder @mkb @Bandersnatch @DemocracyMattersALot That kind of "count at the moment of casting" is a good one.
I see it as a data element in an overall audit system rather than necessarily the primary act of voting.
I would note, however, that the goal of instant results is probably a distant fantasy in an era of provisional ballots and various forms of instant run off vote methods.
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@DemocracyMattersALot He's gonna lose every bit of support he has left. MAGA is already fragmenting over his decision to unilaterally push the country into war.
@dalfen Two things we should be pushing towards: Permanently associating Trump and MAGA as who the Republican Party is (because it's true, they've been pushing for this since the Korean War), and to disassociate Republicans from Americans in the eyes of the world.
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