So some people are wondering if whatever the MAGA/Linux crowed is up to is planned and on purpose.
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@ska the general issue here is, that those concepts always have a place. But like you also assume that systemd being more modular would be an advantage by saying that module is better just because.
At which point it's not a great argument to have anymore and ceases to mean anything. Why do we need a more modular design at this point? Systemd can be this tightly integrated project and that's totally fine, even if it's not modular.
It's great we have other init systems tho.
@ska Like software isn't automatically better just because you can easily replace parts of it with something new following different design principles.
But the point is, those kind of blanket statements do act to pretend having technical knowledge and does give grifters more power than they should have.
I'd ask for more concrete and specific technical criticism, not "this project is bad because it violates the ideas I like personally, but which are academic in nature"
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@ska Like software isn't automatically better just because you can easily replace parts of it with something new following different design principles.
But the point is, those kind of blanket statements do act to pretend having technical knowledge and does give grifters more power than they should have.
I'd ask for more concrete and specific technical criticism, not "this project is bad because it violates the ideas I like personally, but which are academic in nature"
@ska But there is a fundamental reason why especially alt-right people are so drawn into the anti-systemd crowed: they declare arbitrary "technical" characteristics to declare what software is or isn't superior. "it's not modular, therefore it sucks" does follow fundamentally a supremacy mindset.
They come up wiht a list of what software should be so they can declare their favorite project as the supremacy winner.
That's the dynamic I'm talking about here.
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@ska the general issue here is, that those concepts always have a place. But like you also assume that systemd being more modular would be an advantage by saying that module is better just because.
At which point it's not a great argument to have anymore and ceases to mean anything. Why do we need a more modular design at this point? Systemd can be this tightly integrated project and that's totally fine, even if it's not modular.
It's great we have other init systems tho.
@karolherbst If you don't see modularity as a goal, then it's fine, but it must also come with the expectation and acceptance that systemd cannot be universal. It should not try to target embedded devices. It should not try to target containers. etc. It cannot have it both ways.
But yes, we probably have a fundamental difference of opinion here: I do believe that one integrated piece of software managing all the parts of a given system is bad design. I believe that several projects interoperating with simple, well-defined interfaces, each one being replaceable, is the superior design, because it gives more power to the user as opposed to the author of the software.
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@karolherbst If you don't see modularity as a goal, then it's fine, but it must also come with the expectation and acceptance that systemd cannot be universal. It should not try to target embedded devices. It should not try to target containers. etc. It cannot have it both ways.
But yes, we probably have a fundamental difference of opinion here: I do believe that one integrated piece of software managing all the parts of a given system is bad design. I believe that several projects interoperating with simple, well-defined interfaces, each one being replaceable, is the superior design, because it gives more power to the user as opposed to the author of the software.
@ska yeah and my point is that this kind of thinking, if one isn't careful, will mean you might get drawn into alt-right aligned communities, because it's kinda a trope there to declare something as superior based on artificial characteristics.
Does saying "systemd sucks because it's not modular" mean you are part of the MAGA crowd? Absolutely not.
But it's the kind of thinking that aligns with them too well and that's why we do see happening what we see there.
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@ska But there is a fundamental reason why especially alt-right people are so drawn into the anti-systemd crowed: they declare arbitrary "technical" characteristics to declare what software is or isn't superior. "it's not modular, therefore it sucks" does follow fundamentally a supremacy mindset.
They come up wiht a list of what software should be so they can declare their favorite project as the supremacy winner.
That's the dynamic I'm talking about here.
@karolherbst To be very blunt, I don't give a flying fuck what alt-right people are drawn to. I'm not using that metric as any kind of indicator for software quality, and I don't think anyone should. And if you insist, my personal interpretation of their motives, for most of them, is not "follow a supremacy mindset", it's "be an edgy contrarian and trigger the libs", and for now that means opposing systemd. If s6 was the most deployed init system worldwide, they would probably oppose s6 instead. It doesn't mean anything, I don't care about these people, and you shouldn't either.
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@ska yeah and my point is that this kind of thinking, if one isn't careful, will mean you might get drawn into alt-right aligned communities, because it's kinda a trope there to declare something as superior based on artificial characteristics.
Does saying "systemd sucks because it's not modular" mean you are part of the MAGA crowd? Absolutely not.
But it's the kind of thinking that aligns with them too well and that's why we do see happening what we see there.
@karolherbst The point that I'm trying to convey here is that the characteristics I'm talking about are not artificial. They have real consequences on how software evolves, from a technical standpoint and also a political standpoint: who wields the power?
I want the power to be in the hands of the user, as much as possible, that is the point of FOSS. And so, I am going to take the position opposite yours: being anti-systemd is a leftist thing to do, because it aims to decentralize power.
The fact that some alt-right people espouse the same position does not mean the position is bad. It means that they feel disempowered too and want more agency. (The difference is that fascists want power over someone less privileged than they are, whereas leftists want justice for all; but that is irrelevant here.)
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@karolherbst The point that I'm trying to convey here is that the characteristics I'm talking about are not artificial. They have real consequences on how software evolves, from a technical standpoint and also a political standpoint: who wields the power?
I want the power to be in the hands of the user, as much as possible, that is the point of FOSS. And so, I am going to take the position opposite yours: being anti-systemd is a leftist thing to do, because it aims to decentralize power.
The fact that some alt-right people espouse the same position does not mean the position is bad. It means that they feel disempowered too and want more agency. (The difference is that fascists want power over someone less privileged than they are, whereas leftists want justice for all; but that is irrelevant here.)
@ska most users won't feel any difference whether the systems they use run systemd or bash scripts as a system manager.
It's the wrong place to fight this fight.
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@ska the general issue here is, that those concepts always have a place. But like you also assume that systemd being more modular would be an advantage by saying that module is better just because.
At which point it's not a great argument to have anymore and ceases to mean anything. Why do we need a more modular design at this point? Systemd can be this tightly integrated project and that's totally fine, even if it's not modular.
It's great we have other init systems tho.
Why do we need a more modular design at this point?
because it turns out software developers make mistakes when defining apis and behaviours, and having a way to replace a bad component with a better one is always preferable.
could systemd replace some of its components with some others within itself ? yes. but being modular makes experimentation into potentially better models much easier, and therefore, improvement of the general system also easier.
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@ska most users won't feel any difference whether the systems they use run systemd or bash scripts as a system manager.
It's the wrong place to fight this fight.
@karolherbst I think you are putting a lot of effort into equating "fighting Nazis" with "being pro-systemd", which conveniently is the system you have chosen to use. Your arguments about "supremacy in software" feel sophistic to me, and could easily be reversed: what piece of software, if any, could be described as hegemonic in the Linux userspace today? 🤔
I don't think we'll come to an agreement over this, so I will let you fight Nazis your way, and I will fight them my way, and I'll be the one choosing the place for that. 🙏
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undefined oblomov@sociale.network shared this topic
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@karolherbst @dotstdy @jonkoops BTW if you want some actual numbers I wrote them up some time ago
https://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/nuclear-will-not-save-us/
https://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/nuclear-will-not-save-us-2/
https://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/nuclear-will-not-save-us-3/
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