things humans are bad at: memorising specific sequences of words
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@bri7 I wouldn't define those as command line systems, TBH.
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@bri7 In other words, Emacs > POSIX.
@lispi314 i hope you’re talking about some emacs that isn’t the text editor that opens with nothing but a blank screen and some cryptic text along the top and bottom, that expects you to memorise 5000 keyboard shortcuts. that would be a silly thing to say, cos at least you can learn a small number of commands on linux that at least lists the available commands and allow you to type them by name
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@bri7@social.treehouse.systems
oh wow it would be super neat if that was written anywhere other than a shitty internet comment about how stupid i am for not knowing that
In Bash's manpage it's written in the §Readline - Completing.
Completing complete (TAB) Attempt to perform completion on the text before point. Bash at‐ tempts completion treating the text as a variable (if the text begins with $), username (if the text begins with ~), hostname (if the text begins with @), or command (including aliases and functions) in turn. If none of these produces a match, filename completion is attempted.Granted it would've been helpful if there was some built-in tutorial feature.
Part of the issue here is that POSIX & UNIX expect you to have a physical user manual or guidebook/handbook or to already be familiar with UNIX & POSIX.
Because historically it was easier and cheaper to have a paper book available (things have certainly changed).
“In Bash's manpage it's written in the §Readline - Completing.”
you have got to be joking.
you do not follow me and be that oblivious about how stupid that sentence sounds
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@lispi314 i hope you’re talking about some emacs that isn’t the text editor that opens with nothing but a blank screen and some cryptic text along the top and bottom, that expects you to memorise 5000 keyboard shortcuts. that would be a silly thing to say, cos at least you can learn a small number of commands on linux that at least lists the available commands and allow you to type them by name
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“In Bash's manpage it's written in the §Readline - Completing.”
you have got to be joking.
you do not follow me and be that oblivious about how stupid that sentence sounds
@bri7
How long is that manpage!? -
@bri7
How long is that manpage!?@bri7
Oh, and it doesn't show up for "man -k completion" which is yet another "I have to type what for the documentation?" -
“In Bash's manpage it's written in the §Readline - Completing.”
you have got to be joking.
you do not follow me and be that oblivious about how stupid that sentence sounds
@bri7@social.treehouse.systems It was written somewhere else.
Not somewhere particularly user-friendly (I even remarked on that), but it was.
It noteworthy because there are some things that truly aren't documented at all in various other programs (guess you're fucked if you don't have the Internet then?).
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@bri7@social.treehouse.systems It was written somewhere else.
Not somewhere particularly user-friendly (I even remarked on that), but it was.
It noteworthy because there are some things that truly aren't documented at all in various other programs (guess you're fucked if you don't have the Internet then?).
@lispi314 i beseech you review my list of UI principles to find out why that doesn’t count as being written somewhere
https://notes.yip.pe/Principles%20of%20UI,%20A%20Thread.html
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@lispi314 i hope you’re talking about some emacs that isn’t the text editor that opens with nothing but a blank screen and some cryptic text along the top and bottom, that expects you to memorise 5000 keyboard shortcuts. that would be a silly thing to say, cos at least you can learn a small number of commands on linux that at least lists the available commands and allow you to type them by name
@bri7@social.treehouse.systems I never had that
Emacs, it sounds a lot likezileormg.The one I have has the third link on the opening page be "tutorial".
The tutorial also talks about
apropos,execute-extended-command(M-x) andcompletionwhich remove most of the need to memorize.Through those, with configuration, one can either lookup something by partly-remembered name or remembered movements (keybinds).
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@lispi314 i beseech you review my list of UI principles to find out why that doesn’t count as being written somewhere
https://notes.yip.pe/Principles%20of%20UI,%20A%20Thread.html
1. need to know the man command in advance
2. need to know the feature exists already (defeating the point)
3. need to know the NAME of the feature
4. need to know what bash is
5. need to know what readline isyou might as well say it was written on the dark side of the moon, at the end of a rainbow, at the bottom of a leprechauns’s pot of gold
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@bri7@social.treehouse.systems I never had that
Emacs, it sounds a lot likezileormg.The one I have has the third link on the opening page be "tutorial".
The tutorial also talks about
apropos,execute-extended-command(M-x) andcompletionwhich remove most of the need to memorize.Through those, with configuration, one can either lookup something by partly-remembered name or remembered movements (keybinds).
@lispi314 right so… your emacs is worse than linux, and *is* the one i remember that is worse than linux
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@lispi314 right so… your emacs is worse than linux, and *is* the one i remember that is worse than linux
@lispi314 RTFM is not a serious response to the issue that humans are still not good at memorising specific sequences of words or command key sequences; it displays a kind of illiteracy that makes me wonder
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@lispi314 right so… your emacs is worse than linux, and *is* the one i remember that is worse than linux
@bri7 Emacs at least has the decency of mentioning it has a manual and having it builtin. -
@bri7 Emacs at least has the decency of mentioning it has a manual and having it builtin.
@lispi314 that would be a plus except that most people expect to be able to figure out software well enough and then look in the manual when they run into trouble. by that time, emacs tutorial link is permanently gone
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@lispi314 RTFM is not a serious response to the issue that humans are still not good at memorising specific sequences of words or command key sequences; it displays a kind of illiteracy that makes me wonder
@bri7 I suspect we are running into neurotype differences.
Remembering exact movements that I always do exactly the same to the point that I do not have to think about it and can practically ritualize them comes to me naturally.
I would actually struggle entering my passphrases if I lost a limb, because I simply do not think about the passphrase most of the time. -
@bri7 I suspect we are running into neurotype differences.
Remembering exact movements that I always do exactly the same to the point that I do not have to think about it and can practically ritualize them comes to me naturally.
I would actually struggle entering my passphrases if I lost a limb, because I simply do not think about the passphrase most of the time.@lispi314 memorising exact movements is not contradictory to spatial interfaces
but blind interfaces that totally prevent spatial memory from forming, and require lexical memory to function at all, are contradictory to spatial skills
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@lispi314 memorising exact movements is not contradictory to spatial interfaces
but blind interfaces that totally prevent spatial memory from forming, and require lexical memory to function at all, are contradictory to spatial skills
@lispi314 this is not an issue of neurotype either. better designed UIs help everyone- things like linux and emacs are an elitist club of privileged people who have the time to care deeply about computers
which would be fine if there were not an army of people demanding *everyone* switch to linux and/or emacs while insisting the obvious problems don’t exist, and they’re just too stupid to understand it. it’s a kind of gaslighting
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@madengineering @bri7 > Only nerd nostalgia keeps it that way.
Some things are required to be crappy by POSIX.
Shells that do structured pipes are incompatible.@lispi314 @madengineering @bri7 Nothing should stop one from having more than one shell on a computer, and not all shells have to be POSIX compatible.
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some nerd somewhere i am sure: “uhh you can hit the tab key to autocomplete the directory”
me: oh wow it would be super neat if that was written anywhere other than a shitty internet comment about how stupid i am for not knowing that
repeat for every single linux feature
here’s a wild thought: put documentation visibly next to the feature it relates to instead of in the town planning office, in a locked filing cabinate in the basement next to the sign that says “watch out for leopard”
and i mean individual features, individual documentation. Not a one time dismissable link to a 500 page tutorial written with a tone that is contemptuous to its users.
(RMS is a huge offender here, his tutorials are universally awful)
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@lispi314 @madengineering @bri7 Nothing should stop one from having more than one shell on a computer, and not all shells have to be POSIX compatible.
@fogti @madengineering @bri7 Indeed, and a few have decided to do just that.
Lack of structured pipes & interchange is one of my problems with the UNIX/POSIX ecosystem.
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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Solo meno Europa 🇪🇺 salverà l'Europa.
Ce lo dice in maniera analiticamente provocatoria un cinese 🇨🇳: forse è proprio nelle sue parole la soluzione.
La provocazione di Yuk Hui, filosofo, docente all’Università Erasmus di Rotterdam.
https://www.avvenire.it/agora/cultura/solo-meno-europa-salvera-leuropa-la-provocazione-di-yuk-hui_104738
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@karolherbst it's a bit puzzling, isn't it?
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@tg bought it and liking it.
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@sabrinaweb71 @Yaku ecco, allora no, noi non facciamo cena presto - nanna presto, facciamo cena presto - un po' di ore di *vita* - nanna ad un orario normale :D
(ok, a volte “vita” è parola grossa, ma son sempre attività piacevoli)
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@LianaBrooks I am and it does, both personally and professionally.
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Primary? Yes.
Only? Not really, but mostly.I use #Mastodon as my primary social media, especially as I'm self-hosting my own server. I do visit #Bluesky and #Threads occasionally, but that's like once a week to check for replies and so on to stuff I cross-post via #Fedica.
Is it working for me? Yeah, in the main. Sadly the main reason I'd been using Twitter for pre-Musk was for the World of Warcraft community there. They never really migrated en masse, and very few came over to Mastodon sadly, but the ones that did and stayed are great!
Bsky sees the next amount of activity from me, and that is mainly World of Warcraft and very little else.
Threads is barely used.
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@LianaBrooks Yes; and quite well - it’s less immediate than the hellsites, which means less clickbaiting and a more relaxed experience.
