I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky
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@mat @mcc @eniko yeah, because you need sync, afaik. https://atproto.com/specs/sync
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@mat @thisismissem @eniko The continuous event streams are HTTP. Mine are being proxied through Apache
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@mat @thisismissem @eniko The continuous event streams are HTTP. Mine are being proxied through Apache
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@mcc I do, yeah. So it's just one part of the stack. The complicated parts come later, eh?
@tylercook Yes, correct. If you already have a setup for hosting Docker containers standing up the PDS is *trivial*. Like, you could do it in under an hour. I don't pay per byte of bandwidth (VPS) but the load from running my PDS has been so low I don't notice it. And if it turns out to be a problem you can migrate out to another PDS.
I'm going to DM you a link to a Discord I found helpful when debugging issues with my PDS.
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@thisismissem @mat @eniko Okay, yes, that's more accurate.
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@fleeky 1. Correct
2. I don't know@mcc am having a discussion of this on bsky that is helping to disambiguate :
https://bsky.app/profile/futur.blue/post/3lyuzwzb2k226
also https://github.com/zeppelin-social/bluesky-appview -
@thisismissem @mat @eniko Okay, yes, that's more accurate.
@mcc @mat @eniko so yeah, I was more saying PHP and WebSockets isn't likely to be the most pleasant time for someone. (much like Ruby and WebSockets)
But yeah, if you're suggesting a sidecar PDS to a wordpress blog that just publishes bluesky posts with a link to the wordpress post, then that'd be relatively simple. It's once you want to go beyond that that things start getting hard.
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@erincandescent @mcc Nope. Recovery is one of the primary considerations. Unless you intentionally want recovery to be impossible (some people may), you have a recovery policy notarized (can be published or kept unpublished in safe storage you control) prior to any use of the identity. Then proof of conditions satisfying the recovery policy preempt any transfer of control that took place later during a compromise.
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@mcc @erincandescent The concept is that you intentionally preclude the possibility of detecting "double-spend" so that the system can't be used for exchanging things of value. As a bonus, this also precludes selling identities. It's impossible to prove you're not keeping hidden an earlier-dated transfer to a different new owner when you offer to transfer an identity for money.
@dalias @erincandescent I understand how such a system would work but I would not use it for at least two reasons
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@erincandescent @mcc Nope. Recovery is one of the primary considerations. Unless you intentionally want recovery to be impossible (some people may), you have a recovery policy notarized (can be published or kept unpublished in safe storage you control) prior to any use of the identity. Then proof of conditions satisfying the recovery policy preempt any transfer of control that took place later during a compromise.
@erincandescent @mcc And in my view, "not usable for money" is a prerequisite for "usable as identity". Related: the whole market for buying popular browser extensions to put malware in them.
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Why does the "relay" matter? Well, because although Bluesky's claim is that moderation is "composable" in their systemβ that you can choose which moderators to followβ moderation decisions made by Bluesky are hard binding on systems they control. Someone blocked by Bluesky is blocked from the Bluesky appview, their content will get removed from the Bluesky PDS if they were using that. The Bluesky relay censors content that violates the data "schema"; I suspect (?) it enforces moderation also.
@mcc I don't think the last part is true. Their relay implementation is open source also. Trying to find more info about this
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@mat @eniko Well, point of order. Do I want to work together? If so, why? I have no incentive or desire to badmouth Bluesky specifically, but also, do I have any incentive to grow their ecosystem or help their corporate project? All I want to do is talk to people. The only ATP dev I've done has been because it makes it easier for me to talk people.
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And that's why I say, TLDR:
- I am legitimately excited about the work being done by Blacksky Algorithms! I am using their frontend and happy with it.
- Northsky is an interesting development to watch
- If you're on a Bluesky PDS, I recommend migrating off with one of these tools https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:ii5jchdzlmcojjw4dqczcgkh/post/3lyt6t6qfa22u
- Everything Sucks. A LOT of things would have to change at a social level for *any* entity other than Bluesky to have power or independence in the ATP ecosystem. I still don't trust Bluesky.
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Why does the "relay" matter? Well, because although Bluesky's claim is that moderation is "composable" in their systemβ that you can choose which moderators to followβ moderation decisions made by Bluesky are hard binding on systems they control. Someone blocked by Bluesky is blocked from the Bluesky appview, their content will get removed from the Bluesky PDS if they were using that. The Bluesky relay censors content that violates the data "schema"; I suspect (?) it enforces moderation also.
@mcc Content doesnβt get removed from the PDS it would be hidden by labels - accounts do have takedown labels applied.
Bluesky operated relay doesnβt censor Lexicons that donβt validate and it doesnβt enforce moderation.
For those following along at home the relay costs about $30/month to run for all ~38M accounts worth of content.
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@mcc Content doesnβt get removed from the PDS it would be hidden by labels - accounts do have takedown labels applied.
Bluesky operated relay doesnβt censor Lexicons that donβt validate and it doesnβt enforce moderation.
For those following along at home the relay costs about $30/month to run for all ~38M accounts worth of content.
@boris "Content doesnβt get removed from the PDS it would be hidden by labels - accounts do have takedown labels applied." I could be wrong but this seems to be contradicted by actual events over the last two weeks.
"Bluesky operated relay doesnβt censor Lexicons that donβt validate" Contradicted by my own testing. Either the relay censors them or the appview does and it comes to the same thing, because when I make 301-character posts even third party tools can't see them.
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@mcc am having a discussion of this on bsky that is helping to disambiguate :
https://bsky.app/profile/futur.blue/post/3lyuzwzb2k226
also https://github.com/zeppelin-social/bluesky-appview@fleeky As an update, I searched on blacksky.community for "from:me blackbird" and found a post from 2024. So they have some source of older posts.
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@boris "Content doesnβt get removed from the PDS it would be hidden by labels - accounts do have takedown labels applied." I could be wrong but this seems to be contradicted by actual events over the last two weeks.
"Bluesky operated relay doesnβt censor Lexicons that donβt validate" Contradicted by my own testing. Either the relay censors them or the appview does and it comes to the same thing, because when I make 301-character posts even third party tools can't see them.
@mcc accounts get taken down! Posts do not / individual posts doesnβt get removed out of the repo (would also break verification of a repo and is detectable)
yes apps all choose their validation (and for that matter strong types). Regardless itβs not the relay thatβs doing it if youβd like to be correct about where locus of control is.
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@mcc accounts get taken down! Posts do not / individual posts doesnβt get removed out of the repo (would also break verification of a repo and is detectable)
yes apps all choose their validation (and for that matter strong types). Regardless itβs not the relay thatβs doing it if youβd like to be correct about where locus of control is.
@boris "(would also break verification of a repo and is detectable)"
What happens if I delete a post from a repo? If it can't be removed can someone then query the post from my PDS direct and get a copy of the deleted content?
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So what I understand from this is that it would be relatively possible for BlackSky or NorthSky to add ActivityPub as a secondary protocol in ways that would likely be unfeasible to do the other way (ActivityPub instance using ATProto as a secondary protocol)
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@fleeky As an update, I searched on blacksky.community for "from:me blackbird" and found a post from 2024. So they have some source of older posts.
@mcc it seems like with enough effort some amount of mastodon sparsity could be implemented in bsky ,, so my current criticism still stands , i still think mastodon is easier and cheaper to maintain but bsky is definitely more popular (if you like that sort of thing) and could be cludged into different network architectures probably with enough effort .. main question is which way will it evolve ?
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@mcc sad stuff π’ Thanks for the history lesson and analysis.
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@mcc Yeah. I don't see how that's sustainable. I'm not sure it's even sustainable for Bluesky.
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@lrhodes Depends on how you do it I imagine. But remember that's several terabytes for the like what, three years or something Bluesky has been running. We will expect it to grow endlessly, and we should expect the growth to grow endlessly as Bluesky becomes more popular.
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@mcc What's the monthly cost on maintaining several terabytes of data in perpetuity?
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@game sì, ci sono anche soluzioni (purtroppo non previste da Mastodon) in cui alcuni utenti (i minori) accedono solo alle risorse locali o a un bouquet selezionato di istanze esterne, mentre altri possono utilizzare la federazione. Ma non sono di facile implementazione
@mapto @informapirata
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t yet
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@mcc I read your thread only now, and I wanted to thank you for posting all that. I am no fan of Bluesky and their one-instance federation, but I have a phony account there, to follow how it's going for them. Threads like yours fill in additional context. π
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Bonjour ! @Neko0001
