I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky
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I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
My expectation was it was unlikely we'd ever see this happen because "federation" on ATProto means basically reproducing the entirety of the Bluesky software stack. In old Big Data terms, on ActivityPub your instance is a "horizontal shard" of the network; ATProto forces full DB replicas only.
Still, we're seeing movement on this front, which I'd split into two categories:
1. Your fault (you reading this)
2. Aaron Rodericks's fault@mcc Look, Bluesky has some nice advantages over the fediverse, mainly that it's not confusing at all because it gets to the point of just being old Twitter.
Federation is not their strong point and will never be, whether we like it or not, if you want federation and multiple communities, Activitypub is by far the best option.
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@esoteric_programmer so this is all within my ability. But what about the rest of the stack? To my understanding, the PDS and view? As @mcc says things have to change in a social level but the first step is more nodes...
@mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer I think the key point is: "Every Bluesky replica is, probably without realizing it, making a bet that Bluesky has already plateaued." This is a worthwhile experiment, as long as you can pull the plug at a moment's notice and lose nothing. -
@esoteric_programmer @alter_kaker @mcc This is curious to me, because it looks like he's running a relay as an actual relay, just passing along data, which would explain why it's relatively low-cost. But the Relay described by the Bluesky white paper was more than just a relay— it was a replacement (or rebrand) for the earlier Big Data Server that was supposed to not only pass data, but also store and index it all for the network. And I can't tell if those other, more expensive functions got offloaded to other services, or if there are two types of relays in the infrastructure, or something else.
@lrhodes @mcc @alter_kaker @esoteric_programmer My understanding is that relays have a "replay since timestamp X" functionality, so that consumers that go down for a while can get back up and running. Originally relays by definition had to support any X back to the beginning of time, leading to absurd storage costs. Today they are allowed to have a much shorter window, meaning in effect the storage cost is insignificant and it's the network cost that dominates. Unless I'm mistaken, the canonical store of a user's posting history is and always was the PDS. -
@alter_kaker I'm not the person to ask. I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord (yes, it's really named that) and ask there.
Blacksky has all their software on GitHub (they are using a mix of original Bluesky software and their own stuff) but not instructions on how to deploy it as a whole stack.
@mcc @alter_kaker "I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord"
But... why are they not using... no OK never mind.
I'm so glad for this thread! I've had a bazillion questions about AT but nowhere to ask them. I really think there should be an "other protocols" channel on activitypub.space though. This is not "Technical discussion about ActivityPub-related topics" and sooner or later someone's gonna get angry at us.
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@mcc @alter_kaker "I would join the Bluesky API Touchers discord"
But... why are they not using... no OK never mind.
I'm so glad for this thread! I've had a bazillion questions about AT but nowhere to ask them. I really think there should be an "other protocols" channel on activitypub.space though. This is not "Technical discussion about ActivityPub-related topics" and sooner or later someone's gonna get angry at us.
mat@friendica.exon.name I am not opposed to a category discussing alternatives protocols.
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undefined Piero Bosio ha condiviso questa discussione su
undefined Christine Lemmer-Webber ha condiviso questa discussione su
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As an update since posting the above thread I have received replies from two people, one saying I am underestimating the level of stack coverage Blacksky has, another saying I am overestimating it. Also a "AppView" and "Client" are different. Sorry.
The stack is just so tall! There are *so many* layers in this protocol's model. And it seems like every single one of them is an opportunity to introduce censorship
Update: Rudy who operates blacksky.community responded to this thread on bluesky. Above I said I wasn't clear on how independent Blacksky was of the Bluesky infra. His answer is "completely". They run their own relay (which scrapes PDSes itself), the relay feeds into their own appview, the appview feeds into their own client. https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3lyv5rwpc722c
And since they bridge end-to-end, in my Hypothetical Example above, they *could* choose to make different moderation decisions from Bluesky PBC.
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I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
My expectation was it was unlikely we'd ever see this happen because "federation" on ATProto means basically reproducing the entirety of the Bluesky software stack. In old Big Data terms, on ActivityPub your instance is a "horizontal shard" of the network; ATProto forces full DB replicas only.
Still, we're seeing movement on this front, which I'd split into two categories:
1. Your fault (you reading this)
2. Aaron Rodericks's fault@mcc thanks for this!
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Update: Rudy who operates blacksky.community responded to this thread on bluesky. Above I said I wasn't clear on how independent Blacksky was of the Bluesky infra. His answer is "completely". They run their own relay (which scrapes PDSes itself), the relay feeds into their own appview, the appview feeds into their own client. https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3lyv5rwpc722c
And since they bridge end-to-end, in my Hypothetical Example above, they *could* choose to make different moderation decisions from Bluesky PBC.
@mcc Right now there are people hosted on Blacksky who cannot post because they are banned by Bluesky.
I've been asking Rudy about how independent Blacksky is from Bluesky but have not heard back yet.
From what someone said, it seems that Blacksky is using the Bluesky labeling system which performs moderation. Thus, to be banned on Bluesky means you are locked out on any instance that uses its labeling.
Some more context https://bsky.app/profile/bloomfilters.bsky.social/post/3m2ih4oh64r2v
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@andersgo Teams meeting? Sorry about that 😆
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@stefano I'm starting mine with smooth moosick of Teams meeting chatter...
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Good morning, #BSDCafe
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Good morning, #FediverseThe week has already started in a hectic way, but I'm ready!
I wish you all a good week, and hope that everything always goes well.https://song.link/s/6IEoVSVzsnGJQLWW8nHL2r
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@mcc Right now there are people hosted on Blacksky who cannot post because they are banned by Bluesky.
I've been asking Rudy about how independent Blacksky is from Bluesky but have not heard back yet.
From what someone said, it seems that Blacksky is using the Bluesky labeling system which performs moderation. Thus, to be banned on Bluesky means you are locked out on any instance that uses its labeling.
Some more context https://bsky.app/profile/bloomfilters.bsky.social/post/3m2ih4oh64r2v
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For those coming over to mastodon from Bluesky, here are a couple of tools to try to enhance your experience here on the Fedi:
First up is Phanpy, a minimalistic web client for Mastodon https://phanpy.social
Need more than 500 characters? Splinter helps turn a long form post into a Mastodon thread. https://splinter.hastily.cc
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⚔️ Cronache del Fediverso – “Il Ban Facile” ⚔️
Ogni tanto i cavalieri del keyboard-valor bussano alle porte dei miei piccoli server,
convinti di trovarci il buffet aperto. 🤺🍽️Peccato per loro che qui ha vinto la noia: c’è uno che ha tempo libero, ci smanetta, conosce i trucchi e ha il ban facile.
🔎 Per i curiosi (e i distratti)
Risultato? Invece del trofeo del giorno, ricevono il premio più temuto: una settimana di esilio digitale. 🧨Ecco perché questi attaccanti sembrano più ridicoli che pericolosi:
🏷 Si fingono americani (IP sembra registrato in Kentucky)…
ma la traccia reale spesso punta a Hong Kong (geolocazioni contrastanti).🆕 IP appena creati — subnet assegnate la scorsa settimana: perfetti per affittare VPS “usa e getta”.🔍 Nessun PTR / reverse DNS configurato: server appena messo online o volutamente “anonimo”.🧭 ASN sospetti (Optibounce / Silverstream / reti “bulletproof”): provider che riciclano blocchi e li spostano in giro per il mondo.✉️ Comportamento tipico: tentativi SMTP/relay e scansioni veloci — presi al volo da fail2ban.⛔ Risultato: ban immediato (7 giorni), recidive trattate con mano ferma (periodi molto più lunghi).💬 Morale della storiaSe volete davvero fare gli “eroi” del net:
fatevi un tè, leggete un po’ e lasciate perdere i miei server. Qui non si trovano porticine aperte a caso — si trova solo ordine, logs e un amministratore con tempo libero e riflessi pronti. 😎Alla prossima puntata di
🎬 “Phisher & Furious – Truffatori all’ultima mail”.
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Emphasizing moderation differences and such are things best left to discover after the user successfully lands onto the fediverse.
At the start they shouldn't even have to think about what instance they want to land on. We're approaching it with the mindset that they "want to join Lemmy/Piefed" — that's not right!
They should want to join a specific community, and the server just happens to be whatever they find first.
Let's say I like Star Trek. I shouldn't have to be redirected to startrek.website. I should be able to see the community, think "cool I want to participate", and sign up, even if where I landed happens to be feddit, db0, or a random NodeBB instance.
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@julian It works, I answered you in the community forum.
