I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky
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@mattsheffield I do not think, in the context of the post you have made here, shatteredsky is "a PDS". I think we are using terminology differently and this is making it difficult for me to follow the conversation.
@mcc It is both a PDS and an app view. I'll be publishing a piece about this later today after getting more info. Nothing from Rudy though
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So. The thread above. An update.
We finally got a live test of the "Gertrude scenario", when a popular Blacksky user got permbanned by Bluesky. I, using my own PDS and blacksky's website, can't see him or his posts ( https://blacksky.community/profile/did:plc:2aebn3xk5t63net43eeepire/post/3m2iokicegs2b ). What gives?
A lot of people claim this is because Blacksky really is using Bluesky's appview, and gave me a way to verify this looking at headers. This seems to contradict Rudy's previous claims. I've asked Rudy for clarification: https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:2aebn3xk5t63net43eeepire/post/3m2jve23cf22m
@mcc@mastodon.social amazing thread. so clear even explaining what you’re not clear about. but it does make me feel like it shouldn’t be this complicated. i haven’t looked at atproto but everything i read makes me not want to.
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@mcc@mastodon.social amazing thread. so clear even explaining what you’re not clear about. but it does make me feel like it shouldn’t be this complicated. i haven’t looked at atproto but everything i read makes me not want to.
@ellyxir I honestly don't think their architecture is very good
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@mcc it's certainly possible! I didn't think they were running a separate appview yet but I could easily be wrong.
(blacksky.community is currently a fork of the Blluesky app-aka-client, it hasn't diverged much yet. not sure if and when they're planning on writing their own implementation of that)
@mcc mmmmkay it looks like Rudy is now in the process of "standing up an app.bsky.* API server" (aka appview) which "Is different from our community.blacksky.* API which is going on hold". So, my best guess is that his answer to you reflected the architecture (where the ommunity.blacksky,* API server is conceptually part of blacksky,.community) rather than the currently-available public implementation at the time.
(And no idea whether he's standing up an early implementation of their Rust appview or doing the off-the-shelf Bluesky appview or something else.)
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@mcc mmmmkay it looks like Rudy is now in the process of "standing up an app.bsky.* API server" (aka appview) which "Is different from our community.blacksky.* API which is going on hold". So, my best guess is that his answer to you reflected the architecture (where the ommunity.blacksky,* API server is conceptually part of blacksky,.community) rather than the currently-available public implementation at the time.
(And no idea whether he's standing up an early implementation of their Rust appview or doing the off-the-shelf Bluesky appview or something else.)
@jdp23 What's interesting to me here is, the bluesky line is "ha ha it's super good everyone is angry at us because it accelerates federation", but you're making it sound like Rudy is having to upend his software engineering schedule to do stuff he otherwise wouldn't have had to do at all early, because of this incident forcing him to protect his users
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@mcc what exactly is the benefit of migrating to a non bluesky PDS? I understand being on an entirely different vertical stack like Blacksky or Northsky but what does being on a PDS give you? Aren't you still (almost) entirely at bluesky's mercy?
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@jdp23 What's interesting to me here is, the bluesky line is "ha ha it's super good everyone is angry at us because it accelerates federation", but you're making it sound like Rudy is having to upend his software engineering schedule to do stuff he otherwise wouldn't have had to do at all early, because of this incident forcing him to protect his users
@mcc @jdp23 here guys this might help clarify why Rudy has to rearrange his epics in jira:
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3m2j6ccx2bs2t
moderation can only be additive until/unless you pony up the CSAM/hashmatch API key money plus roll and run yr own mod sys at scale. thats the real Achilles heel of composable moderation-- replacing the bottom layer is incredibly expensive -
@mcc @jdp23 here guys this might help clarify why Rudy has to rearrange his epics in jira:
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3m2j6ccx2bs2t
moderation can only be additive until/unless you pony up the CSAM/hashmatch API key money plus roll and run yr own mod sys at scale. thats the real Achilles heel of composable moderation-- replacing the bottom layer is incredibly expensive@mcc yeah have a look at Rudy's thread there, he makes that very clear. And similarly Northsky is saying well, our original plan was do PDS as Phase 1, Relay as Phase 2, and AppView as Phase 3, but now we're acceslerating Relay and AppView up and treating it all as Phase 1. My take is that everybody always took the approach of treating Bluesky PBC as a potential adversary but didn't expect them to be this adversarialy this quickly.
(If this is all an N-dimensional chess play to blow up the company to speed up the decentralization ... well as shitposting goes, that's pretty darned epic. But it's probably just horrbile comms accelerating and magnifying the tensions that were always inherent. Time will tell I guess.)
@by_caballero it's true that's a huge hole in the composable moderation model (and Rudy and others had been looking at it even before this -- https://discourse.atprotocol.community/t/how-should-we-fairly-split-the-costs-of-commons-moderation-across-producer-and-consumer-apps/122 is interesting thinking from the Eurosky perspective although doesn't yet point to any conclusions). But for this particular case they just need an appeal method for community members that allows themm to override the Bluesky mod service's app-level takedowns in their own AppView. On the deeper issue though I feel pretty vindicated because I've always said that composable moderation is interesting and valuable in some important use cases but doesn't actually solve the moderation scalability issue.
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@anna @adrienne @eniko @mcc all the records in your PDS contain references to your identity (DID document), it's theoretically possible to modify the data to change that but requires rewriting your entire PDS for that account, so not particularly practical.
It's the DID that is moderated against in the higher layers, not your handle.
So it doesn't matter if you're @fred.example or @jason.example, if the DID used for one becomes the DID used for another handle.
It's kinda like how on ActivityPub, software has often encoded your username into the identifier for all your posts, meaning you can't change it without breaking everything.
(Though Mastodon is starting to fix this long-standing issue, there's fix only applies on new accounts, there's no protocol level way to fix it yet — it's kinda a weakness in JSON-LD)
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FYI all the Mastodon team is looking for feedback on featured collections (aka "starter packs") so they may check in on this post 🙂
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@anna @adrienne @eniko @mcc all the records in your PDS contain references to your identity (DID document), it's theoretically possible to modify the data to change that but requires rewriting your entire PDS for that account, so not particularly practical.
It's the DID that is moderated against in the higher layers, not your handle.
So it doesn't matter if you're @fred.example or @jason.example, if the DID used for one becomes the DID used for another handle.
It's kinda like how on ActivityPub, software has often encoded your username into the identifier for all your posts, meaning you can't change it without breaking everything.
(Though Mastodon is starting to fix this long-standing issue, there's fix only applies on new accounts, there's no protocol level way to fix it yet — it's kinda a weakness in JSON-LD)
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@mcc yeah have a look at Rudy's thread there, he makes that very clear. And similarly Northsky is saying well, our original plan was do PDS as Phase 1, Relay as Phase 2, and AppView as Phase 3, but now we're acceslerating Relay and AppView up and treating it all as Phase 1. My take is that everybody always took the approach of treating Bluesky PBC as a potential adversary but didn't expect them to be this adversarialy this quickly.
(If this is all an N-dimensional chess play to blow up the company to speed up the decentralization ... well as shitposting goes, that's pretty darned epic. But it's probably just horrbile comms accelerating and magnifying the tensions that were always inherent. Time will tell I guess.)
@by_caballero it's true that's a huge hole in the composable moderation model (and Rudy and others had been looking at it even before this -- https://discourse.atprotocol.community/t/how-should-we-fairly-split-the-costs-of-commons-moderation-across-producer-and-consumer-apps/122 is interesting thinking from the Eurosky perspective although doesn't yet point to any conclusions). But for this particular case they just need an appeal method for community members that allows themm to override the Bluesky mod service's app-level takedowns in their own AppView. On the deeper issue though I feel pretty vindicated because I've always said that composable moderation is interesting and valuable in some important use cases but doesn't actually solve the moderation scalability issue.
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@mcc @jdp23 here guys this might help clarify why Rudy has to rearrange his epics in jira:
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3m2j6ccx2bs2t
moderation can only be additive until/unless you pony up the CSAM/hashmatch API key money plus roll and run yr own mod sys at scale. thats the real Achilles heel of composable moderation-- replacing the bottom layer is incredibly expensive
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@adrienne @eniko @mcc one thing i was never clear on, if you have your own pds and get permad, can you migrate and get around the perma, or is it some kind of cryptographic seed/hash of your pds data that's perma'd so you're fucked?
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@eniko @mcc if you're on your own PDS, you at least don't lose all your existing posts if bsky decides to permaban you. (If you're on one of their mushroom PDSes, they'll nuke all your content along with a permaban.)
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I really don't understand the point of packs when Mastodon has hashtag follows. Mastodon is already winning in terms of discovery here and in fact I still don't use Bluesky because its impossible to discover content there.
On Bluesky you get a pack of people but in linear timelines the power spammers just take over and then you have to do all that personal curation anyway but it's often even a worse starting point than just blank slate. With hashtag following I just subscribe to #fediverse and discover new content and creators organically.
Instead I'd like to see Mastodon commit more to organic discovery rather than consolidation of power users by expanding post classification system like using AI classification that attaches topic hashtags to posts etc to help users discover content they actually want to see not follow personalities.
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@jdp23 What's interesting to me here is, the bluesky line is "ha ha it's super good everyone is angry at us because it accelerates federation", but you're making it sound like Rudy is having to upend his software engineering schedule to do stuff he otherwise wouldn't have had to do at all early, because of this incident forcing him to protect his users
