I'm a "but..." because private accounts are kind of frustrating on Mastodon.
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I'm a "but..." because private accounts are kind of frustrating on Mastodon. When you reply to a followers-only post on Mastodon, for example, the response is legible only to *your* followers, not the followers of the person you replied to. So, the conversation diminishes rapidly. This is a bug.
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I'm a "but..." because private accounts are kind of frustrating on Mastodon. When you reply to a followers-only post on Mastodon, for example, the response is legible only to *your* followers, not the followers of the person you replied to. So, the conversation diminishes rapidly. This is a bug.
Second, there's an in-between kind of audience -- a set of people that I don't know personally, but that I trust some smart moderators have vetted. Bike lovers, Montreal Open Source fans, ActivityPub developers. Sometimes you want to talk to "people like us", vaguely defined. Facebook Groups work like this, for instance; well-managed mailing lists and chat groups work this way, too. My hope is that the work that we're doing for groups in the SocialCG will help with this: https://github.com/swicg/groups
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Second, there's an in-between kind of audience -- a set of people that I don't know personally, but that I trust some smart moderators have vetted. Bike lovers, Montreal Open Source fans, ActivityPub developers. Sometimes you want to talk to "people like us", vaguely defined. Facebook Groups work like this, for instance; well-managed mailing lists and chat groups work this way, too. My hope is that the work that we're doing for groups in the SocialCG will help with this: https://github.com/swicg/groups
Finally, there's that extra step of end-to-end encryption (E2EE) that protects the content even from your (and their) server operator. I think the current work on bringing MLS to ActivityPub will help with that a lot. https://github.com/swicg/activitypub-e2ee
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Finally, there's that extra step of end-to-end encryption (E2EE) that protects the content even from your (and their) server operator. I think the current work on bringing MLS to ActivityPub will help with that a lot. https://github.com/swicg/activitypub-e2ee
@evan So I think you need to think about audiences. Compare Bluesky. Mastodon launched very "closed" and Bluesky launched very "open". And Bluesky users all want *more* privacy features than they have, but the overall thing is Mastodon attracted a *very* privacy-conscious crowd and Bluesky less so. Which means I think some scraping-based features which are *entirely defensible*, and which Bluesky users would love, would find bad traction with the Mastodon userbase *specifically*. We self-sorted.
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@evan So I think you need to think about audiences. Compare Bluesky. Mastodon launched very "closed" and Bluesky launched very "open". And Bluesky users all want *more* privacy features than they have, but the overall thing is Mastodon attracted a *very* privacy-conscious crowd and Bluesky less so. Which means I think some scraping-based features which are *entirely defensible*, and which Bluesky users would love, would find bad traction with the Mastodon userbase *specifically*. We self-sorted.
@evan Are the SocialCG "groups" different from the thing Lemmy is already using?
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@evan So I think you need to think about audiences. Compare Bluesky. Mastodon launched very "closed" and Bluesky launched very "open". And Bluesky users all want *more* privacy features than they have, but the overall thing is Mastodon attracted a *very* privacy-conscious crowd and Bluesky less so. Which means I think some scraping-based features which are *entirely defensible*, and which Bluesky users would love, would find bad traction with the Mastodon userbase *specifically*. We self-sorted.
@mcc I don't understand your point. The whole thread is about avoiding scraping. I didn't say anything about adding scraping-based features.
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@evan Are the SocialCG "groups" different from the thing Lemmy is already using?
@mcc yes.
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@mcc I don't understand your point. The whole thread is about avoiding scraping. I didn't say anything about adding scraping-based features.
@evan @mcc the framing of the poll appears to suggest that the real question is whether to go with individualist solutions for scraping problems, or to condemn scraping practices more broadly (the latter being the fedi status quo right now)
this may or may not have been your intent, but it's how it comes off
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@evan @mcc the framing of the poll appears to suggest that the real question is whether to go with individualist solutions for scraping problems, or to condemn scraping practices more broadly (the latter being the fedi status quo right now)
this may or may not have been your intent, but it's how it comes off
@ireneista @evan When I've seen such sentiments previously, I feel like I've seen it from people who want to make third-party apps that would require scraper-like behavior, and are thus chafing against the Mastoverse social norm that even public posts don't get scraped. I'm used enough to that being the bounds of discussion it didn't click for me that you (Evan) were talking about actual protocol extensions.
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Finally, there's that extra step of end-to-end encryption (E2EE) that protects the content even from your (and their) server operator. I think the current work on bringing MLS to ActivityPub will help with that a lot. https://github.com/swicg/activitypub-e2ee
So, a couple of people asked if this poll was meant to keep people from arguing against scraping, indexing, and training on people's public data. Nothing of the kind.
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So, a couple of people asked if this poll was meant to keep people from arguing against scraping, indexing, and training on people's public data. Nothing of the kind.
I think that developers in our community, who hold our values, are likely to be very amenable to this kind of argument. I think that making that point verbally can be really helpful.
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I think that developers in our community, who hold our values, are likely to be very amenable to this kind of argument. I think that making that point verbally can be really helpful.
I also think advisory signals, like robots.txt and meta tags, or the indexable/discoverable flags on Mastodon accounts, can be helpful with compliant and friendly bots -- especially search engine or archiving bots.
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I also think advisory signals, like robots.txt and meta tags, or the indexable/discoverable flags on Mastodon accounts, can be helpful with compliant and friendly bots -- especially search engine or archiving bots.
But I also think people are concerned about bots that aren't friendly or compliant -- for example, "dark" LLM training bots that ignore robots.txt and other signals. I don't think that arguing or signalling helps in those cases. Having a private account and posting followers-only does, though.
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@ireneista @evan When I've seen such sentiments previously, I feel like I've seen it from people who want to make third-party apps that would require scraper-like behavior, and are thus chafing against the Mastoverse social norm that even public posts don't get scraped. I'm used enough to that being the bounds of discussion it didn't click for me that you (Evan) were talking about actual protocol extensions.
@mcc @ireneista Great. Thanks.
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@martind yikes
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Looks like cold weather on the way!!
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E ha vietato di usarle perché non erano sicure.
Qui il punto è un articolo di Umberto Rapetto , generale della Guardia di Finanza in congedo, già comandante del GAT Nucleo Speciale Frodi Telematiche eccetera eccetera che spara delle cazzate pazzesche, spacciandolo per una diminuzione della sicurezza dovuta alla moda.
"Il cosiddetto “codice usa-e-getta” adesso viene generato tramite il cellulare del correntista grazie ad una delle dilaganti “app” che vanno tanto di moda.
La “chiavetta” ad un solo pulsante e la sua sorella più accessoriata con tanto di tastierino erano un indiscutibile punto di forza, ma probabilmente non passare ad una soluzione basata sullo smartphone poteva far sembrare “vecchia” la banca che aveva ancora in esercizio un sistema datato ma straordinariamente arzillo.
Bisogna far tutto con il cellulare per non passare per rincoglioniti. Bisogna farlo anche se le frodi sono in agguato e proprio quello strumento telefonico si configura come l’anello debole della catena."
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@AdoroIlGenio e a proposito...
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@las_lallero Che palle. Io mi ricordo quando l’Eurovision era solo musica e niente politica. Io continuerò a vederlo perché sono un grande fan del format. Ma effettivamente così come hanno rimosso la Russia (grande peccato perché a livello musicale tirava fuori delle perle bellissime) dovrebbero rimuovere Israele…
Due pesi e due misure per davvero
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@mcc @ireneista Great. Thanks.
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But I also think people are concerned about bots that aren't friendly or compliant -- for example, "dark" LLM training bots that ignore robots.txt and other signals. I don't think that arguing or signalling helps in those cases. Having a private account and posting followers-only does, though.
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I also think advisory signals, like robots.txt and meta tags, or the indexable/discoverable flags on Mastodon accounts, can be helpful with compliant and friendly bots -- especially search engine or archiving bots.
