@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

furthermore, someday mastodon will die

replaced by some newer project that has features mastodon users have been clamoring for and were never addressed

i hope at such time i have the foresight to not become a bitter old man shouting at clouds angry at the natural progression of things

you're not angry at mastodon

you're angry at life

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

I'm not angry. not at mastodon, not at you, and definitely not at life.

I'm disappointed at people who hold unwarranted beliefs, who are so keen on defending bad antisocial practices that they won't even realize the underlying problem, and will fall in the same traps over and over without learning to recognize them

we're supposed to learn from others' experiences to avoid having to get hurt ourselves

I respect your choice to not listen. I hope it doesn't hurt too much.

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

Alexandre, you have a limited time on this planet. As do I, as do us all

You need to pick your battles

And you need to have good tactics

I understand the nature of your complaint. And I'm telling you, as long as we're not in a capitalist environment (thank God), all you can do is build as you wish things to be

You can't demand others adhere as you wish, when you have no leverage over them

Just build it yourself

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

as long as you insist that the solution is building (presumably software, or perhaps a network), I can't help the feeling that we're miscommunicating

the software and the network already exist. we could and can talk because we're using this interoperable decentralized network, each one of us using software of our own choice, talking to each other by a largely standardized protocol. none of these require building because they already exist and are satisfactorily operational

the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power

you seem to have mistaken my call for action as an attack on mastodon

I presume you like mastodon very much to feel a need to jump in front of it to defend it from a perceived attack

I'm not attacking it, though. I'm illustrating the concentration of power as a demonstration of the need for the action I'm calling for, both because of what the concentration of power enables it to do, and because it has already done such things.

my call for action is not to attack mastodon, nor to leave it behind, but to keep its power in check, to understand that the interoperability is valuable and to make that clear to mastodon developers, so that they don't even think of misusing that power in their hands to break interoperability and dismantle the Fediverse that we all rely on; so that by reflex they reject any such destructive ideas.

that kind of clarity about user demands and expectations is something that needs building, and that's exactly what I've been trying to do, in the (vain?) hope that mastodon users will listen, understand, and keep that power in check

I know very well that I can't demand anyone to adhere, and I have no leverage over mastodon users, operators and developers. but mastodon users and operators have leverage over mastodon developers, in as much as mastodon developers get their influence (the power I've been talking about) and their funding largely from these users and operators in this interoperable network.

does that make sense to you? do you see now why your earlier advice didn't make sense to me?

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

"the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power"

Alexandre, before mastodon there were other projects. were they perfect? no. mastodon came and people liked it enough to switch. is mastodon perfect? no

people are improving on it

things will change again

i utterly reject your depiction of mastodon as if it is a capitalist centralized entity. it's bullshit

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

I can't imagine where you got this "capitalist centralized entity" and why you keep going back to it, but I give up, I can't seem to get the threat to the fediverse out of this power concentration through to you, or, more importantly, how to keep it in check. maybe you're not ready for it, or you don't want to be, whatever. you're not telling me anything new, and I can't get to you something that would clearly be new to you, so I'll leave you alone now. have a good one.

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

that's correct. i am not ready for it, and i never will be

because what you're saying is bullshit

the problem is you talk in terms of power and leverage that does exist in a noncapitalist environment

just because mastodon is popular doesn't grant it any power

all someone has to do is write something better and people will flock to that instead. what magical hold do you think mastodon possesses? there is none

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

power has existed since very long before capitalism came to be

mastodon developers make the changes that thousands of instance operators trust blindly, which affect all their users. they also control the largest instance of the fediverse and all of their users.

that is power. not absolute power, but power nevertheless. it doesn't make them prisoners, but it is control over some aspects of their digital lives.

I take it that you're not familiar with the notion of free software, of control over one's own computing, and how ceding it gives others power over your computing and thus your life.

even though mastodon is free software, most mastodon users don't have control over the software that runs the instances they use. this means those who control the instances and the software on them have power over the users.

that power exists even if you don't believe it, even if you call it bullshit.

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

what power?

if twitter does something nefarious, people are trapped, there are no choices

if mastodon does something nefarious, boom: everyone goes to another project

this environment is completely consensual and voluntary

everything is open. the code is open. the fediverse is full of infosec people who would notice shenanigans in an instant

your brain is stuck in business mode. and this is not a business

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

it seems very naïve to me to assume that power only arises in business relationships. have you never heard of abusive relationships that aren't business relationships?

you seem to be projecting your own business prejudices on me. I'm not at all reasoning in terms of business. my reasoning is about community power dynamics.

surely you've heard of network effects. that's one factor. if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind, just like they do when they leave Xitter behind. that costs them (not money), so they're less likely to take the leap.

even moving to another server within the same network leaves history behind (another discouraging cost), and depends on working interoperable move

since they don't have control over the servers they use, if the server gets so enshittified as to motivate them to want to move out they might find that the changes also prevent them from moving seamlessly to other servers that haven't been so enshittified

this won't get them stuck, but will require them the painful process of rebuilding all of their connections elsewhere. that's another discouraging cost.

as I said, it's not absolute power, but it is power nevertheless. not business power, not capitalist power, but some control over others' lives through the software they use that's not under their own control.

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

"if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind"

you do understand you can xfer your mastodon account to say, gotosocial? migrate followers? even import your comment history?

you wave your hands and conjure up this dark and stormy menace...

that isn't remotely real

"but some control over others' lives"

none. absolutely none

no lock in

no network effect

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

of course I do. you can transfer it to snac as well. as long as the originating server cooperates. which is only a given as long as it is interoperable. got it?

you need to read up a little (or a lot) more about enshittification and about the nonfree software control tricks that even free software developers sometimes attempt to resort to when they control servers that their users rely on

I sort of wish I could live in your dream world. but it's not real.

not unless you make it so, by exerting the kind of pressure over mastodon that is needed for it to keep interoperable despite the power and the temptations to abuse it.

but I guess that's asking for too much of you, when you can't even see the risk. and then, it's far more comfortable to assume the leopard will never bite your own face, isn't it?

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

you admit you can move your account to another project. but then you allude to vast dark forbidding powers mastodon has... that it doesn't really have. you just allude to them. so there's no substance in your argument

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

you know they (and only they) can change how the server you rely on behaves, right?

I've already told you that they've already broken interoperability a few times

try to think about the consequences of that for a while, instead of going one more time into instant denial. I believe you can do that.

have a good night

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

i'm married

my wife could poison my soup at any time

i don't worry about it because i didn't marry a psychotic murderer

whenever you enter into a relationship, in any conceivable system, you place some kind of trust in another party

mastodon is absolutely capable of doing all sorts of vile nasty things

but they aren't going to do it

because they are decentralized social media

not elon musk in a eugen rochko mask

[lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br]

I presume your wife has never poisoned anyone

mastodon has broken interoperability. intentionally. more than once.

they're not the same.

I'm not saying mastodon is like Xitter or F*k

far from it

(it could be bought by them, but I'm not even going there)

but there is a risk, that can be mitigated by not pretending they're angels, and rather realizing they face pressures and they may sometimes come up with rationalizations to break interoperability again.

they know they can because they're dominant, and they've shown they know it by having done it a number of times

users should mount pressure against their making such jerk moves, is what I'm saying

do you by any chance support their making such jerk moves? it fells like maybe you do

CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

i don't think they're angels

but i don't think they're demons

and your broken interop argument is suspect to me

new features require new interop. did mastodon prevent the old projects from writing code to work with new features? or did the old projects just kind of decline?

because this argument that interop has to be set in stone is nonsense

interop will always be changing for new features

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

You should really look at e.g. Friendica on how things can be done WAY‌ better than the way Mastodon has been handling interop since forever.

[benroyce@mastodon.social]

@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137

zero argument, i don't know much about friendica. if what you're alluding to is better interop that's wonderful. so more people should flock to friendica

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 and that's the thing that you're missing here: they don't, which gives Mastodon overarching power within the Fediverse ecosystem, which they abuse with very little care for interoperability with the rest of the ecosystem. Even where there are signs of improvement, interoperability with other platforms remains an extremely low priority over other features, and this is not healthy for the ecosystem.