@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
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as long as you insist that the solution is building (presumably software, or perhaps a network), I can't help the feeling that we're miscommunicating
the software and the network already exist. we could and can talk because we're using this interoperable decentralized network, each one of us using software of our own choice, talking to each other by a largely standardized protocol. none of these require building because they already exist and are satisfactorily operational
the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power
you seem to have mistaken my call for action as an attack on mastodon
I presume you like mastodon very much to feel a need to jump in front of it to defend it from a perceived attack
I'm not attacking it, though. I'm illustrating the concentration of power as a demonstration of the need for the action I'm calling for, both because of what the concentration of power enables it to do, and because it has already done such things.
my call for action is not to attack mastodon, nor to leave it behind, but to keep its power in check, to understand that the interoperability is valuable and to make that clear to mastodon developers, so that they don't even think of misusing that power in their hands to break interoperability and dismantle the Fediverse that we all rely on; so that by reflex they reject any such destructive ideas.
that kind of clarity about user demands and expectations is something that needs building, and that's exactly what I've been trying to do, in the (vain?) hope that mastodon users will listen, understand, and keep that power in check
I know very well that I can't demand anyone to adhere, and I have no leverage over mastodon users, operators and developers. but mastodon users and operators have leverage over mastodon developers, in as much as mastodon developers get their influence (the power I've been talking about) and their funding largely from these users and operators in this interoperable network.
does that make sense to you? do you see now why your earlier advice didn't make sense to me?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
"the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power"
Alexandre, before mastodon there were other projects. were they perfect? no. mastodon came and people liked it enough to switch. is mastodon perfect? no
people are improving on it
things will change again
i utterly reject your depiction of mastodon as if it is a capitalist centralized entity. it's bullshit
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
"the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power"
Alexandre, before mastodon there were other projects. were they perfect? no. mastodon came and people liked it enough to switch. is mastodon perfect? no
people are improving on it
things will change again
i utterly reject your depiction of mastodon as if it is a capitalist centralized entity. it's bullshit
I can't imagine where you got this "capitalist centralized entity" and why you keep going back to it, but I give up, I can't seem to get the threat to the fediverse out of this power concentration through to you, or, more importantly, how to keep it in check. maybe you're not ready for it, or you don't want to be, whatever. you're not telling me anything new, and I can't get to you something that would clearly be new to you, so I'll leave you alone now. have a good one.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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I can't imagine where you got this "capitalist centralized entity" and why you keep going back to it, but I give up, I can't seem to get the threat to the fediverse out of this power concentration through to you, or, more importantly, how to keep it in check. maybe you're not ready for it, or you don't want to be, whatever. you're not telling me anything new, and I can't get to you something that would clearly be new to you, so I'll leave you alone now. have a good one.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
that's correct. i am not ready for it, and i never will be
because what you're saying is bullshit
the problem is you talk in terms of power and leverage that does exist in a noncapitalist environment
just because mastodon is popular doesn't grant it any power
all someone has to do is write something better and people will flock to that instead. what magical hold do you think mastodon possesses? there is none
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
that's correct. i am not ready for it, and i never will be
because what you're saying is bullshit
the problem is you talk in terms of power and leverage that does exist in a noncapitalist environment
just because mastodon is popular doesn't grant it any power
all someone has to do is write something better and people will flock to that instead. what magical hold do you think mastodon possesses? there is none
power has existed since very long before capitalism came to be
mastodon developers make the changes that thousands of instance operators trust blindly, which affect all their users. they also control the largest instance of the fediverse and all of their users.
that is power. not absolute power, but power nevertheless. it doesn't make them prisoners, but it is control over some aspects of their digital lives.
I take it that you're not familiar with the notion of free software, of control over one's own computing, and how ceding it gives others power over your computing and thus your life.
even though mastodon is free software, most mastodon users don't have control over the software that runs the instances they use. this means those who control the instances and the software on them have power over the users.
that power exists even if you don't believe it, even if you call it bullshit.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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power has existed since very long before capitalism came to be
mastodon developers make the changes that thousands of instance operators trust blindly, which affect all their users. they also control the largest instance of the fediverse and all of their users.
that is power. not absolute power, but power nevertheless. it doesn't make them prisoners, but it is control over some aspects of their digital lives.
I take it that you're not familiar with the notion of free software, of control over one's own computing, and how ceding it gives others power over your computing and thus your life.
even though mastodon is free software, most mastodon users don't have control over the software that runs the instances they use. this means those who control the instances and the software on them have power over the users.
that power exists even if you don't believe it, even if you call it bullshit.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
what power?
if twitter does something nefarious, people are trapped, there are no choices
if mastodon does something nefarious, boom: everyone goes to another project
this environment is completely consensual and voluntary
everything is open. the code is open. the fediverse is full of infosec people who would notice shenanigans in an instant
your brain is stuck in business mode. and this is not a business
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
what power?
if twitter does something nefarious, people are trapped, there are no choices
if mastodon does something nefarious, boom: everyone goes to another project
this environment is completely consensual and voluntary
everything is open. the code is open. the fediverse is full of infosec people who would notice shenanigans in an instant
your brain is stuck in business mode. and this is not a business
it seems very naïve to me to assume that power only arises in business relationships. have you never heard of abusive relationships that aren't business relationships?
you seem to be projecting your own business prejudices on me. I'm not at all reasoning in terms of business. my reasoning is about community power dynamics.
surely you've heard of network effects. that's one factor. if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind, just like they do when they leave Xitter behind. that costs them (not money), so they're less likely to take the leap.
even moving to another server within the same network leaves history behind (another discouraging cost), and depends on working interoperable move
since they don't have control over the servers they use, if the server gets so enshittified as to motivate them to want to move out they might find that the changes also prevent them from moving seamlessly to other servers that haven't been so enshittified
this won't get them stuck, but will require them the painful process of rebuilding all of their connections elsewhere. that's another discouraging cost.
as I said, it's not absolute power, but it is power nevertheless. not business power, not capitalist power, but some control over others' lives through the software they use that's not under their own control.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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it seems very naïve to me to assume that power only arises in business relationships. have you never heard of abusive relationships that aren't business relationships?
you seem to be projecting your own business prejudices on me. I'm not at all reasoning in terms of business. my reasoning is about community power dynamics.
surely you've heard of network effects. that's one factor. if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind, just like they do when they leave Xitter behind. that costs them (not money), so they're less likely to take the leap.
even moving to another server within the same network leaves history behind (another discouraging cost), and depends on working interoperable move
since they don't have control over the servers they use, if the server gets so enshittified as to motivate them to want to move out they might find that the changes also prevent them from moving seamlessly to other servers that haven't been so enshittified
this won't get them stuck, but will require them the painful process of rebuilding all of their connections elsewhere. that's another discouraging cost.
as I said, it's not absolute power, but it is power nevertheless. not business power, not capitalist power, but some control over others' lives through the software they use that's not under their own control.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
"if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind"
you do understand you can xfer your mastodon account to say, gotosocial? migrate followers? even import your comment history?
you wave your hands and conjure up this dark and stormy menace...
that isn't remotely real
"but some control over others' lives"
none. absolutely none
no lock in
no network effect
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
"if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind"
you do understand you can xfer your mastodon account to say, gotosocial? migrate followers? even import your comment history?
you wave your hands and conjure up this dark and stormy menace...
that isn't remotely real
"but some control over others' lives"
none. absolutely none
no lock in
no network effect
of course I do. you can transfer it to snac as well. as long as the originating server cooperates. which is only a given as long as it is interoperable. got it?
you need to read up a little (or a lot) more about enshittification and about the nonfree software control tricks that even free software developers sometimes attempt to resort to when they control servers that their users rely on
I sort of wish I could live in your dream world. but it's not real.
not unless you make it so, by exerting the kind of pressure over mastodon that is needed for it to keep interoperable despite the power and the temptations to abuse it.
but I guess that's asking for too much of you, when you can't even see the risk. and then, it's far more comfortable to assume the leopard will never bite your own face, isn't it?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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of course I do. you can transfer it to snac as well. as long as the originating server cooperates. which is only a given as long as it is interoperable. got it?
you need to read up a little (or a lot) more about enshittification and about the nonfree software control tricks that even free software developers sometimes attempt to resort to when they control servers that their users rely on
I sort of wish I could live in your dream world. but it's not real.
not unless you make it so, by exerting the kind of pressure over mastodon that is needed for it to keep interoperable despite the power and the temptations to abuse it.
but I guess that's asking for too much of you, when you can't even see the risk. and then, it's far more comfortable to assume the leopard will never bite your own face, isn't it?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you admit you can move your account to another project. but then you allude to vast dark forbidding powers mastodon has... that it doesn't really have. you just allude to them. so there's no substance in your argument
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you admit you can move your account to another project. but then you allude to vast dark forbidding powers mastodon has... that it doesn't really have. you just allude to them. so there's no substance in your argument
you know they (and only they) can change how the server you rely on behaves, right?
I've already told you that they've already broken interoperability a few times
try to think about the consequences of that for a while, instead of going one more time into instant denial. I believe you can do that.
have a good night
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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you know they (and only they) can change how the server you rely on behaves, right?
I've already told you that they've already broken interoperability a few times
try to think about the consequences of that for a while, instead of going one more time into instant denial. I believe you can do that.
have a good night
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i'm married
my wife could poison my soup at any time
i don't worry about it because i didn't marry a psychotic murderer
whenever you enter into a relationship, in any conceivable system, you place some kind of trust in another party
mastodon is absolutely capable of doing all sorts of vile nasty things
but they aren't going to do it
because they are decentralized social media
not elon musk in a eugen rochko mask
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i'm married
my wife could poison my soup at any time
i don't worry about it because i didn't marry a psychotic murderer
whenever you enter into a relationship, in any conceivable system, you place some kind of trust in another party
mastodon is absolutely capable of doing all sorts of vile nasty things
but they aren't going to do it
because they are decentralized social media
not elon musk in a eugen rochko mask
I presume your wife has never poisoned anyone
mastodon has broken interoperability. intentionally. more than once.
they're not the same.
I'm not saying mastodon is like Xitter or F*k
far from it
(it could be bought by them, but I'm not even going there)
but there is a risk, that can be mitigated by not pretending they're angels, and rather realizing they face pressures and they may sometimes come up with rationalizations to break interoperability again.
they know they can because they're dominant, and they've shown they know it by having done it a number of times
users should mount pressure against their making such jerk moves, is what I'm saying
do you by any chance support their making such jerk moves? it fells like maybe you do
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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I presume your wife has never poisoned anyone
mastodon has broken interoperability. intentionally. more than once.
they're not the same.
I'm not saying mastodon is like Xitter or F*k
far from it
(it could be bought by them, but I'm not even going there)
but there is a risk, that can be mitigated by not pretending they're angels, and rather realizing they face pressures and they may sometimes come up with rationalizations to break interoperability again.
they know they can because they're dominant, and they've shown they know it by having done it a number of times
users should mount pressure against their making such jerk moves, is what I'm saying
do you by any chance support their making such jerk moves? it fells like maybe you do
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't think they're angels
but i don't think they're demons
and your broken interop argument is suspect to me
new features require new interop. did mastodon prevent the old projects from writing code to work with new features? or did the old projects just kind of decline?
because this argument that interop has to be set in stone is nonsense
interop will always be changing for new features
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't think they're angels
but i don't think they're demons
and your broken interop argument is suspect to me
new features require new interop. did mastodon prevent the old projects from writing code to work with new features? or did the old projects just kind of decline?
because this argument that interop has to be set in stone is nonsense
interop will always be changing for new features
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You should really look at e.g. Friendica on how things can be done WAY better than the way Mastodon has been handling interop since forever.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You should really look at e.g. Friendica on how things can be done WAY better than the way Mastodon has been handling interop since forever.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
zero argument, i don't know much about friendica. if what you're alluding to is better interop that's wonderful. so more people should flock to friendica
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
zero argument, i don't know much about friendica. if what you're alluding to is better interop that's wonderful. so more people should flock to friendica
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 and that's the thing that you're missing here: they don't, which gives Mastodon overarching power within the Fediverse ecosystem, which they abuse with very little care for interoperability with the rest of the ecosystem. Even where there are signs of improvement, interoperability with other platforms remains an extremely low priority over other features, and this is not healthy for the ecosystem.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 and that's the thing that you're missing here: they don't, which gives Mastodon overarching power within the Fediverse ecosystem, which they abuse with very little care for interoperability with the rest of the ecosystem. Even where there are signs of improvement, interoperability with other platforms remains an extremely low priority over other features, and this is not healthy for the ecosystem.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
that's a very naïve view of how interop influences perceptions and choices in a network or market with a dominant player
when the dominant player makes an incompatible change, everyone else is at fault for not keeping up
when someone else makes an incompatible change, nobody moves to it because it can't even talk to the dominant player where nearly all of their friends are
even when the dominant player drops an interop feature, some misguided people will find a way to blame the victims
incompatible features is not the way to evolve an interoperable network; it's the way to fragment it and kill it. the term in standards circles is Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. you may have come across that before.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you have no idea what you're talking about. there is no power, because there is no system
you act like this is hierarchy, where mastodon, any project, owes something. they don't owe anyone anything. they do whatever the fuck they want. it's a flat nonsystem
this is open source
yet you think you can ring some office in a structure, complain, and get results
there's no money
there's no boss
understand where you are
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@stefano you're right, I also tend to link it to people of my generation and I'm not young anymore... 😅😅
Maybe the equivalent for the current generation would be an iphone and unlimited data 😂😂😂😂
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I got an account to my university datacenter, all what I had was a green VT100 connected to some UNIX machine.
I got that account to study C language, UNIX and its tools (awk, sed...).
Then I discovered IRC and my life changed 😁
Then Internet arrived at home too a year or two later, with my IBM compatible 386 and my 14400 modem. A couple of evenings a week I connected the modem to the home phone line and I downloaded/uploaded mail messages.
Browsing the web happened a bit later 😁
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@peterkotrcka for some generations (like mine), it has been. Now things are different. Young people rely much less on motorcycles and cars. Which is somehow (probably) good.
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L'ultimo dei #mannaggia
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Volevo introdurre un equivalente degli hashtagGames del Fediverso anglofono, del tipo «mannaggia un libro o film».
Alla fine ho deciso di andare per un generico “titolo”. A breve in esempio.
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@sarble to watch, definitely. To do … I'm guessing it depends on personal proclivities and existence of adequate safeguards in the landing zone 8-D
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Sandrino Russo (@sandrinorusso.bsky.social)
https://bsky.app/profile/sandrinorusso.bsky.social/post/3mg3cpuyhqs2z
> Ettore Sottsass per Alessi, 1989. Macina pepe modello MP0210
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@max I’m talking about the days of Gopher holes, USENET groups, and BBS boards where you actually had to know the 'address' of where you were going. There was no search engine holding your hand.
What was your first rig? I remember my first 'portable' setup, it weighed about as much as a boat anchor and had less processing power than a modern toaster, but it felt like magic when that first connection clicked into place.
