@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
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it seems very naïve to me to assume that power only arises in business relationships. have you never heard of abusive relationships that aren't business relationships?
you seem to be projecting your own business prejudices on me. I'm not at all reasoning in terms of business. my reasoning is about community power dynamics.
surely you've heard of network effects. that's one factor. if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind, just like they do when they leave Xitter behind. that costs them (not money), so they're less likely to take the leap.
even moving to another server within the same network leaves history behind (another discouraging cost), and depends on working interoperable move
since they don't have control over the servers they use, if the server gets so enshittified as to motivate them to want to move out they might find that the changes also prevent them from moving seamlessly to other servers that haven't been so enshittified
this won't get them stuck, but will require them the painful process of rebuilding all of their connections elsewhere. that's another discouraging cost.
as I said, it's not absolute power, but it is power nevertheless. not business power, not capitalist power, but some control over others' lives through the software they use that's not under their own control.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
"if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind"
you do understand you can xfer your mastodon account to say, gotosocial? migrate followers? even import your comment history?
you wave your hands and conjure up this dark and stormy menace...
that isn't remotely real
"but some control over others' lives"
none. absolutely none
no lock in
no network effect
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
"if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind"
you do understand you can xfer your mastodon account to say, gotosocial? migrate followers? even import your comment history?
you wave your hands and conjure up this dark and stormy menace...
that isn't remotely real
"but some control over others' lives"
none. absolutely none
no lock in
no network effect
of course I do. you can transfer it to snac as well. as long as the originating server cooperates. which is only a given as long as it is interoperable. got it?
you need to read up a little (or a lot) more about enshittification and about the nonfree software control tricks that even free software developers sometimes attempt to resort to when they control servers that their users rely on
I sort of wish I could live in your dream world. but it's not real.
not unless you make it so, by exerting the kind of pressure over mastodon that is needed for it to keep interoperable despite the power and the temptations to abuse it.
but I guess that's asking for too much of you, when you can't even see the risk. and then, it's far more comfortable to assume the leopard will never bite your own face, isn't it?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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of course I do. you can transfer it to snac as well. as long as the originating server cooperates. which is only a given as long as it is interoperable. got it?
you need to read up a little (or a lot) more about enshittification and about the nonfree software control tricks that even free software developers sometimes attempt to resort to when they control servers that their users rely on
I sort of wish I could live in your dream world. but it's not real.
not unless you make it so, by exerting the kind of pressure over mastodon that is needed for it to keep interoperable despite the power and the temptations to abuse it.
but I guess that's asking for too much of you, when you can't even see the risk. and then, it's far more comfortable to assume the leopard will never bite your own face, isn't it?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you admit you can move your account to another project. but then you allude to vast dark forbidding powers mastodon has... that it doesn't really have. you just allude to them. so there's no substance in your argument
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you admit you can move your account to another project. but then you allude to vast dark forbidding powers mastodon has... that it doesn't really have. you just allude to them. so there's no substance in your argument
you know they (and only they) can change how the server you rely on behaves, right?
I've already told you that they've already broken interoperability a few times
try to think about the consequences of that for a while, instead of going one more time into instant denial. I believe you can do that.
have a good night
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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you know they (and only they) can change how the server you rely on behaves, right?
I've already told you that they've already broken interoperability a few times
try to think about the consequences of that for a while, instead of going one more time into instant denial. I believe you can do that.
have a good night
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i'm married
my wife could poison my soup at any time
i don't worry about it because i didn't marry a psychotic murderer
whenever you enter into a relationship, in any conceivable system, you place some kind of trust in another party
mastodon is absolutely capable of doing all sorts of vile nasty things
but they aren't going to do it
because they are decentralized social media
not elon musk in a eugen rochko mask
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i'm married
my wife could poison my soup at any time
i don't worry about it because i didn't marry a psychotic murderer
whenever you enter into a relationship, in any conceivable system, you place some kind of trust in another party
mastodon is absolutely capable of doing all sorts of vile nasty things
but they aren't going to do it
because they are decentralized social media
not elon musk in a eugen rochko mask
I presume your wife has never poisoned anyone
mastodon has broken interoperability. intentionally. more than once.
they're not the same.
I'm not saying mastodon is like Xitter or F*k
far from it
(it could be bought by them, but I'm not even going there)
but there is a risk, that can be mitigated by not pretending they're angels, and rather realizing they face pressures and they may sometimes come up with rationalizations to break interoperability again.
they know they can because they're dominant, and they've shown they know it by having done it a number of times
users should mount pressure against their making such jerk moves, is what I'm saying
do you by any chance support their making such jerk moves? it fells like maybe you do
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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I presume your wife has never poisoned anyone
mastodon has broken interoperability. intentionally. more than once.
they're not the same.
I'm not saying mastodon is like Xitter or F*k
far from it
(it could be bought by them, but I'm not even going there)
but there is a risk, that can be mitigated by not pretending they're angels, and rather realizing they face pressures and they may sometimes come up with rationalizations to break interoperability again.
they know they can because they're dominant, and they've shown they know it by having done it a number of times
users should mount pressure against their making such jerk moves, is what I'm saying
do you by any chance support their making such jerk moves? it fells like maybe you do
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't think they're angels
but i don't think they're demons
and your broken interop argument is suspect to me
new features require new interop. did mastodon prevent the old projects from writing code to work with new features? or did the old projects just kind of decline?
because this argument that interop has to be set in stone is nonsense
interop will always be changing for new features
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't think they're angels
but i don't think they're demons
and your broken interop argument is suspect to me
new features require new interop. did mastodon prevent the old projects from writing code to work with new features? or did the old projects just kind of decline?
because this argument that interop has to be set in stone is nonsense
interop will always be changing for new features
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You should really look at e.g. Friendica on how things can be done WAY better than the way Mastodon has been handling interop since forever.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You should really look at e.g. Friendica on how things can be done WAY better than the way Mastodon has been handling interop since forever.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
zero argument, i don't know much about friendica. if what you're alluding to is better interop that's wonderful. so more people should flock to friendica
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
zero argument, i don't know much about friendica. if what you're alluding to is better interop that's wonderful. so more people should flock to friendica
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 and that's the thing that you're missing here: they don't, which gives Mastodon overarching power within the Fediverse ecosystem, which they abuse with very little care for interoperability with the rest of the ecosystem. Even where there are signs of improvement, interoperability with other platforms remains an extremely low priority over other features, and this is not healthy for the ecosystem.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 and that's the thing that you're missing here: they don't, which gives Mastodon overarching power within the Fediverse ecosystem, which they abuse with very little care for interoperability with the rest of the ecosystem. Even where there are signs of improvement, interoperability with other platforms remains an extremely low priority over other features, and this is not healthy for the ecosystem.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
that's a very naïve view of how interop influences perceptions and choices in a network or market with a dominant player
when the dominant player makes an incompatible change, everyone else is at fault for not keeping up
when someone else makes an incompatible change, nobody moves to it because it can't even talk to the dominant player where nearly all of their friends are
even when the dominant player drops an interop feature, some misguided people will find a way to blame the victims
incompatible features is not the way to evolve an interoperable network; it's the way to fragment it and kill it. the term in standards circles is Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. you may have come across that before.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you have no idea what you're talking about. there is no power, because there is no system
you act like this is hierarchy, where mastodon, any project, owes something. they don't owe anyone anything. they do whatever the fuck they want. it's a flat nonsystem
this is open source
yet you think you can ring some office in a structure, complain, and get results
there's no money
there's no boss
understand where you are
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you have no idea what you're talking about. there is no power, because there is no system
you act like this is hierarchy, where mastodon, any project, owes something. they don't owe anyone anything. they do whatever the fuck they want. it's a flat nonsystem
this is open source
yet you think you can ring some office in a structure, complain, and get results
there's no money
there's no boss
understand where you are
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
This is bullshit. Power dynamics exist in any context where two or more people or groups interact.
Open sources has nothing to do with it. What really matters are numbers, and you can assess the ethos of developers based on their attitude towards the rest of the ecosystem and whether or not it changes when they are the underdog or not.
Also, *especially* in Mastodon case, there absolutely IS money involved
1/n
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that's a very naïve view of how interop influences perceptions and choices in a network or market with a dominant player
when the dominant player makes an incompatible change, everyone else is at fault for not keeping up
when someone else makes an incompatible change, nobody moves to it because it can't even talk to the dominant player where nearly all of their friends are
even when the dominant player drops an interop feature, some misguided people will find a way to blame the victims
incompatible features is not the way to evolve an interoperable network; it's the way to fragment it and kill it. the term in standards circles is Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. you may have come across that before.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i just don't understand the inability to understand: nobody cares
we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
nonsense
this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
no company. no salary. no hierachy. just people doing *whatever the fuck they want*
all of your complaints mean nothing
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
This is bullshit. Power dynamics exist in any context where two or more people or groups interact.
Open sources has nothing to do with it. What really matters are numbers, and you can assess the ethos of developers based on their attitude towards the rest of the ecosystem and whether or not it changes when they are the underdog or not.
Also, *especially* in Mastodon case, there absolutely IS money involved
1/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Regarding the ethos, compare how Mastodon behaved when it was a newcomer with very few users vs how it behaves now. When it got started, the federation protocol was OStatus, which was massively underspecified (even worse than ActivityPub), so the only way to join the network was to do what the others were doing, especially the dominant (= most used) implementation at the time, Status.Net (GNU Social).
2/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Regarding the ethos, compare how Mastodon behaved when it was a newcomer with very few users vs how it behaves now. When it got started, the federation protocol was OStatus, which was massively underspecified (even worse than ActivityPub), so the only way to join the network was to do what the others were doing, especially the dominant (= most used) implementation at the time, Status.Net (GNU Social).
2/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Supporting other types would be TRIVIAL (look at the mediaType rather than the object type to see if you can handle it), but the devs don't care, so the OTHER platforms had to bend over backwards and present Image and Article objects as if they were Notes (a violation of the standard) to make content visible to Mastodon users, even if a trivial change in Mastodon could have handled this.
5/n
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