@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
that's a very naïve view of how interop influences perceptions and choices in a network or market with a dominant player
when the dominant player makes an incompatible change, everyone else is at fault for not keeping up
when someone else makes an incompatible change, nobody moves to it because it can't even talk to the dominant player where nearly all of their friends are
even when the dominant player drops an interop feature, some misguided people will find a way to blame the victims
incompatible features is not the way to evolve an interoperable network; it's the way to fragment it and kill it. the term in standards circles is Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. you may have come across that before.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137 I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you have no idea what you're talking about. there is no power, because there is no system
you act like this is hierarchy, where mastodon, any project, owes something. they don't owe anyone anything. they do whatever the fuck they want. it's a flat nonsystem
this is open source
yet you think you can ring some office in a structure, complain, and get results
there's no money
there's no boss
understand where you are
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
you have no idea what you're talking about. there is no power, because there is no system
you act like this is hierarchy, where mastodon, any project, owes something. they don't owe anyone anything. they do whatever the fuck they want. it's a flat nonsystem
this is open source
yet you think you can ring some office in a structure, complain, and get results
there's no money
there's no boss
understand where you are
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
This is bullshit. Power dynamics exist in any context where two or more people or groups interact.
Open sources has nothing to do with it. What really matters are numbers, and you can assess the ethos of developers based on their attitude towards the rest of the ecosystem and whether or not it changes when they are the underdog or not.
Also, *especially* in Mastodon case, there absolutely IS money involved
1/n
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that's a very naïve view of how interop influences perceptions and choices in a network or market with a dominant player
when the dominant player makes an incompatible change, everyone else is at fault for not keeping up
when someone else makes an incompatible change, nobody moves to it because it can't even talk to the dominant player where nearly all of their friends are
even when the dominant player drops an interop feature, some misguided people will find a way to blame the victims
incompatible features is not the way to evolve an interoperable network; it's the way to fragment it and kill it. the term in standards circles is Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. you may have come across that before.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i just don't understand the inability to understand: nobody cares
we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
nonsense
this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
no company. no salary. no hierachy. just people doing *whatever the fuck they want*
all of your complaints mean nothing
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
This is bullshit. Power dynamics exist in any context where two or more people or groups interact.
Open sources has nothing to do with it. What really matters are numbers, and you can assess the ethos of developers based on their attitude towards the rest of the ecosystem and whether or not it changes when they are the underdog or not.
Also, *especially* in Mastodon case, there absolutely IS money involved
1/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Regarding the ethos, compare how Mastodon behaved when it was a newcomer with very few users vs how it behaves now. When it got started, the federation protocol was OStatus, which was massively underspecified (even worse than ActivityPub), so the only way to join the network was to do what the others were doing, especially the dominant (= most used) implementation at the time, Status.Net (GNU Social).
2/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Regarding the ethos, compare how Mastodon behaved when it was a newcomer with very few users vs how it behaves now. When it got started, the federation protocol was OStatus, which was massively underspecified (even worse than ActivityPub), so the only way to join the network was to do what the others were doing, especially the dominant (= most used) implementation at the time, Status.Net (GNU Social).
2/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Supporting other types would be TRIVIAL (look at the mediaType rather than the object type to see if you can handle it), but the devs don't care, so the OTHER platforms had to bend over backwards and present Image and Article objects as if they were Notes (a violation of the standard) to make content visible to Mastodon users, even if a trivial change in Mastodon could have handled this.
5/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
Supporting other types would be TRIVIAL (look at the mediaType rather than the object type to see if you can handle it), but the devs don't care, so the OTHER platforms had to bend over backwards and present Image and Article objects as if they were Notes (a violation of the standard) to make content visible to Mastodon users, even if a trivial change in Mastodon could have handled this.
5/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
because it's 600M potential users!
who wouldn't
you have the weirdest position: old shit has to be supported
no it doesn't. you throw old shit out
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
The fact that Mastodon only cares about interop when it's the underdog shows the shitty ethos of its leadership and developers.
It is about about power AND it is about numbers AND —ESPECIALLY for Mastodon— it is about MONEY. Because if people move to other platforms Mastodon loses users, loses control, and its PAID developers lose their income stream from donations.
7/n
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
The fact that Mastodon only cares about interop when it's the underdog shows the shitty ethos of its leadership and developers.
It is about about power AND it is about numbers AND —ESPECIALLY for Mastodon— it is about MONEY. Because if people move to other platforms Mastodon loses users, loses control, and its PAID developers lose their income stream from donations.
7/n
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
So you see minor Fediverse platforms working on improving interoperability, improving data and profile portability, giving users control to freely move between servers and platforms, and Mastodon NOT GIVING A SHIT and you still go to all these lengths to defend it, well, it says more about you than anything else.
8/8
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
So you see minor Fediverse platforms working on improving interoperability, improving data and profile portability, giving users control to freely move between servers and platforms, and Mastodon NOT GIVING A SHIT and you still go to all these lengths to defend it, well, it says more about you than anything else.
8/8
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
so i can't migrate my account to gotosocial?
oh wait i can
what the fuck are you on about
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
so i can't migrate my account to gotosocial?
oh wait i can
what the fuck are you on about
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
If you think the possibility to migrate accounts is what I'm talking about, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
https://joinfediverse.wiki/Nomadic_identity
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/nomadic-identity-for-the-fediverse/2101
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fep-ef61-portable-objects/3738
(etc)
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
because it's 600M potential users!
who wouldn't
you have the weirdest position: old shit has to be supported
no it doesn't. you throw old shit out
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You sound like a Google developer.
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@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i just don't understand the inability to understand: nobody cares
we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
nonsense
this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
no company. no salary. no hierachy. just people doing *whatever the fuck they want*
all of your complaints mean nothing
nobody cares
that's exactly the problem. users should be aware of the risks, and care about them, checking the developer's power over them.we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
that's exactly the unchecked power I'm speaking of.and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
with great power, comes great responsibility
if you extend your implementation recklessly, you undermine the very network you depend on to exist.
it kills the goose that lays golden eggs.
but if the developers don't see that, users who care about the network could and should help them see it.this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
this is true
that's why my argument is based on alignment of self interests
users want a working, interoperable network
mastodon wants users for influence and funding
mastodon has power over users because code is law, and most users don't control their servers
users check that power by making it clear that they care about the diverse network with interop
nobody owes you anything, but if they want something from you collectively, you collectively have some leverage
don't waste it, but use it intelligently, is what I'm asking, so that we have a healthier network even if mastodon developers don't care about the goose's health
this is community power dynamics with intelligent checks and balances in collective pursuit of self interests
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
If you think the possibility to migrate accounts is what I'm talking about, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
https://joinfediverse.wiki/Nomadic_identity
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/nomadic-identity-for-the-fediverse/2101
https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fep-ef61-portable-objects/3738
(etc)
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't care
no one fucking cares
people build things, and they work or not, and they are adapted or not
there's no obligations here. there's no heirarchy here. no one owes you, or me, or anyone else anything
welcome to open source. it's anarchy
and you act like you're in a board room meeting
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@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
i don't care
no one fucking cares
people build things, and they work or not, and they are adapted or not
there's no obligations here. there's no heirarchy here. no one owes you, or me, or anyone else anything
welcome to open source. it's anarchy
and you act like you're in a board room meeting
@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
anarchy has an ethos, and you are violating that ethos. That's not anarchy, that's the right-wing libertarian “might makes right” attitude that is driving us to fascism in real world politics. And you're supporting that here. Congratulations.
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@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
You sound like a Google developer.
@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel @everton137
oh yeah
as i explain to you open source, and you push back as if it's a hierarchy with obligations, that means *i* am the corporate goon here
that makes perfect sense
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@DarioZanette @Paoblog @tecnologia @ildisinformatico @dado beh basta suare searxng, e ti disfi di tutto il riassunto dell'intelligenza, puoi configurare searxng in modo che usi solo google come motore: https://searxng.devol.it
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@adhdeanasl it's basically the complement to this Otterly Human comic by @lowqualityfacts
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@gian_d_gian credo che chiamare "minchioni" chi è andato in vacanza nel momento sbagliato in un posto sbagliato al momento sia errato. A parte il ministro della difesa non era prevedibile quello che è successo. Poteva succedere in molti altri luoghi.
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@GrapheneOS I tried doing some searching online and I couldnt determine if Pixels have open source firmware? Idk how realistic to hope that these collab devices will have at least source available firmware.
Also, do you know what the expected EOL timeframe for these new devices will be? Can we expect something on par to the Pixel 8? With advancements in hardware security (eg. the development of MTE) is it even worth holding onto a phone for a 7 year lifespan?
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@0c45d7d45edb0fadda4215d36ca0d9aba0c771b85d3717764b8a128d5e443e4d @GrapheneOS I'd settle for anyone ONE of those. Haha
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@GrapheneOS @skywalker2k17 @alexia I am ready for an upgrade.. Wish a repairable phone was an option. Due to the fact the only thing wrong with my phone is the charge port on my pixel 7.
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@GrapheneOS This deserves a "GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!"
Also, will it be possible to load Graphene on my own? In case Motorola pushes some bloatware I don't want :-D
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[in orbit]
Me: *shivering and thinking about space heaters* those LIARS
