Even people with the most to lose continue to support and rely heavily on:
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@dangoodin I self host a matrix server for a dozen friends or so… it’s not made for normal people to run, and most clients suck differently
Yes, exactly. Try using Matrix in a 100+ union made up of mostly non technologists. The added friction makes alternatives a non starter.
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You're talking like a privacy-minded technologist. We are a minority. For people who lack tech skills, almost all of the alternatives are unusable to the average person.
Linux is usable by everyone, though many people may need help getting set up.
Everyone can use other search engines than google or bing.
Everyone can buy a degoogled mobile phone and use it.
Everyone can sign up to proton ot tuta for mail, calendar and more.
Everyone can get an account on a hosted Nextcloud service.
Companies and organisations with some economy can buy help with setting up and/or managing services.
The hard thing is makeing the desicion, which, acknowledged, includes the will to do some getting used to, some changes of habits, and maybe letting go with some convenience.
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Linux is usable by everyone, though many people may need help getting set up.
Everyone can use other search engines than google or bing.
Everyone can buy a degoogled mobile phone and use it.
Everyone can sign up to proton ot tuta for mail, calendar and more.
Everyone can get an account on a hosted Nextcloud service.
Companies and organisations with some economy can buy help with setting up and/or managing services.
The hard thing is makeing the desicion, which, acknowledged, includes the will to do some getting used to, some changes of habits, and maybe letting go with some convenience.
@dangoodin ... Of course noone needs to do all that at once. Taking one thing at the time will help, and it will become easier and easier. :)
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Linux is usable by everyone, though many people may need help getting set up.
Everyone can use other search engines than google or bing.
Everyone can buy a degoogled mobile phone and use it.
Everyone can sign up to proton ot tuta for mail, calendar and more.
Everyone can get an account on a hosted Nextcloud service.
Companies and organisations with some economy can buy help with setting up and/or managing services.
The hard thing is makeing the desicion, which, acknowledged, includes the will to do some getting used to, some changes of habits, and maybe letting go with some convenience.
I think you're underestimating the friction many of your suggested alternatives add to non-technical, non-privacy-minded folks. Conving my union to move off of Slack has failed and will continue to fail until the alternatives become as usable.
Yes, people CAN use alternatives, but the vast majority won't until they get much better.
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@dangoodin ... Of course noone needs to do all that at once. Taking one thing at the time will help, and it will become easier and easier. :)
Agreed. I'd love to start with Slack, but Matrix and other alternatives aren't usable for people whose mission is outside of tech (and even many whose mission IS tech oriented).
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I think you're underestimating the friction many of your suggested alternatives add to non-technical, non-privacy-minded folks. Conving my union to move off of Slack has failed and will continue to fail until the alternatives become as usable.
Yes, people CAN use alternatives, but the vast majority won't until they get much better.
@dangoodin That is no reason to give up. :)
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@dangoodin That is no reason to give up. :)
Agreed.
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Agreed. I'd love to start with Slack, but Matrix and other alternatives aren't usable for people whose mission is outside of tech (and even many whose mission IS tech oriented).
@dangoodin I think Nextcloud may be a better alternative to slack than Matrix (talk, circles etc) but then I never tried slack :)
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@dangoodin I think Nextcloud may be a better alternative to slack than Matrix (talk, circles etc) but then I never tried slack :)
I'll give it another look. Thanks.
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Even people with the most to lose continue to support and rely heavily on:
-- Google
-- Slack
-- Meta
-- Microsoft
-- Apple
-- Too many others to listThese orgs cozy up to authoritarianism. They terminate your account for any reason or no reaso at all. They shove AI down your throat.
And yet, my workplace, union, and so many of the orgs I value and need keep using them and have no plans to ween themselves off. Yes, I realize current dynamics make all of this inevitable.
So I'm left feeling hopeless and helpless, which is a terrible place to be.
I appreciate everyone who has taken time to respond. Unfortunately, some of the responses demonstrate how much many of us privacy-minded technologists live in ivory towers and have no idea how hard it is to get the rest of the world to take on the added friction of switching.
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@dangoodin Even trying to pursuade certain relatives off WhatsApp. Oh my friends are all on it & I don't want notifications for another app as well.
@annehargreaves @dangoodin funny story, a friend works for a company that is iso 27001 certified, so everyone has to use teams -- because only microsoft is secure enough for enterprise.
but all of the execs still use personal whatsapp for comms, because teams is too hard. 🙃
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I appreciate everyone who has taken time to respond. Unfortunately, some of the responses demonstrate how much many of us privacy-minded technologists live in ivory towers and have no idea how hard it is to get the rest of the world to take on the added friction of switching.
It’s the whole “we all have to participate in society” thing. I need to communicate with my father’s caregivers and they have a phone app to check in at the facility. My kids use Google Classroom at their schools.
Do I wish it were otherwise? Sure. Am I going to make it difficult to care for my father or do my kids’ homework? Nope. Gotta pick my battles.
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Even people with the most to lose continue to support and rely heavily on:
-- Google
-- Slack
-- Meta
-- Microsoft
-- Apple
-- Too many others to listThese orgs cozy up to authoritarianism. They terminate your account for any reason or no reaso at all. They shove AI down your throat.
And yet, my workplace, union, and so many of the orgs I value and need keep using them and have no plans to ween themselves off. Yes, I realize current dynamics make all of this inevitable.
So I'm left feeling hopeless and helpless, which is a terrible place to be.
@dangoodin adoption and reach are the hardest things to overcome for a product that requires critical mass.
And even if you do not, the truckloads of $$ that have gone into making google or whatever 1/visible and 2/easy to set up are a force on their own.
Call it VHS vs. betamax but without external forces or regulatory events, it is VERY hard to displace even shitty incumbents, just because they happen to be there already.
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It’s the whole “we all have to participate in society” thing. I need to communicate with my father’s caregivers and they have a phone app to check in at the facility. My kids use Google Classroom at their schools.
Do I wish it were otherwise? Sure. Am I going to make it difficult to care for my father or do my kids’ homework? Nope. Gotta pick my battles.
The privacy of sensitive union discussions is most def a battle worth picking.
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The privacy of sensitive union discussions is most def a battle worth picking.
No argument there ✊
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Agreed. But no one seems to be doing that sucessfully, with maybe the exception of Signal and maybe Mastodon. Yes, others are trying but the usability is often lacking and the security is untested.
@dangoodin @davew @markhurst even if usability is great, sometimes it is appropriate product documentation that is lacking e.g @delta
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My biggest concern with my union is its deep reliance on Slack, seconded by Zoom. Yes, there are Slack alternatives, but all of them require a large amount of admin work from someone with a fair amount of experience. They also lack much of the usability features of Slack. (Zoom alternatives are also not suitable for a union our size.) I posted a query a few months ago seeking Slack alternatives. I got a lot of suggestions and I investigated each one. NONE of them were suitable, given our limited resources.
@dangoodin Do you have a clear idea of what's missing from the current slack alternatives? Zoom is too big a beast for me to even consider at the moment.
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I appreciate everyone who has taken time to respond. Unfortunately, some of the responses demonstrate how much many of us privacy-minded technologists live in ivory towers and have no idea how hard it is to get the rest of the world to take on the added friction of switching.
@dangoodin Much the same when people say "Just tell 'em not to run Windows anymore!", etc.
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@annehargreaves @dangoodin funny story, a friend works for a company that is iso 27001 certified, so everyone has to use teams -- because only microsoft is secure enough for enterprise.
but all of the execs still use personal whatsapp for comms, because teams is too hard. 🙃
@airshipper @dangoodin Teams is a total pain.
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@airshipper @dangoodin Teams is a total pain.
@annehargreaves @dangoodin ugh, we are having to write a business case to justify not switching from slack, because teams chat costs way less. "there's a reason!" is not persuading the cfo
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@francina1909 SI, dai, ti prego! E avvisami, che lo facciamo un coro. 🤬
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Oggi sono in agile. Mi ha telefonato la capa e le ho detto:"Ah, ti stavo giusto scrivendo una mail". Mi ha risposto:"Stavi facendo la tua attività preferita"...
....
🤔🤔🤔
Si legge:"Con tutte 'ste mail mi stai rompendo le piccole e grandi labbra"?(tentativo di uso femminista del linguaggio)😅
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Excited to be here at #fossbackstage seeing old friends and meeting new folks. Excellent to be in a space to discuss the policy and other non-technical aspects of the open source ecosystem. Oh, and a Fediwall right at the entrance! 🎉
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Piegano vestiti, corrono maratone, assemblano auto elettriche nelle fabbriche Xiaomi. E adesso sparano. Un’azienda americana di robotica chiamata Foundation ha inviato due robot umanoidi Phantom Mk-I sui campi di battaglia dell’Ucraina per missioni di ricognizione in prima linea.
"Pensiamo che ci sia un imperativo morale nel mandare questi robot in guerra al posto dei soldati in carne e ossa." ha dichiarato LeBlanc al Time. L’obiettivo è costruire Phantom fino a farne un robot capace di "usare qualsiasi tipo di arma che un essere umano può usare." Come i #Terminator, ha ammesso candidamente.🤦♂️
https://www.punto-informatico.it/robot-umanoidi-armati-guerra-ucraina-cosa-succede/
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È un progetto all'inizio, vedremo come va.
Sul mio Nextcloud personale ho installato onlyoffice, e non ho problemi coi file di Microsoft. Per dire che si può fare.
Poi forse l'obiettivo è anche usare meno possibile quei file. Su questo non ho capito bene ma immagino che di default si userà open document
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@Alberto @electricsheep @matz @simone @marcoboh @bradipo eh sì infatti l'ho scritto, a questo punto se proprio serve piuttosto Alipay (e non è che sia tanto meglio, ma piuttosto che i tecnonazisti americani)
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@ilsimoneviaggiatore partendo dal principio che il costo sia compatibile con Google Drive e Microsoft Sharepoint, e che in effetti si riesca davvero a editare i file word ed excel (pensate quanto ci ha messo Google per avere un risultato decente...) la cosa sarebbe sì interessante. Però secondo me quello che servirà è una massa critica di aziende, noi utenti finali contiamo poco...
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@ilsimoneviaggiatore grazie, ho capito. Quindi è un argomento di scarso interesse per l'utente comune, ma di alto interesse per le PMI
