Even people with the most to lose continue to support and rely heavily on:
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@dangoodin only in Denmark/Sweden - where my experience is that all unions have enough resources to write a plan and start executing it. Actually, many of the unions have A LOT of resources. But they're run like corporations that sell a product (memberships, legal protection, networking, post-education). That product is marketed (on social media), hence they all have social media strategies and dedicated employees.
And these unions aren't using any of the platforms listed in my OP? Impressive if so.
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@dangoodin I love how Linux is always the solution. Folks have no clue how regular people operate. If I were to hand a Linux laptop to any of the smart but non-technical folks I know, they’d struggle hard. Expecting them to install Linux or install and manage a number of FOSS tools? That’s not happening.
@thomasareed @dangoodin I've had pretty good success doing this. Mint feels very like windows to the people I've helped. And most people are uncomfortable with Word etc. anyway, so Libreoffice is not too tough.
The rub is with people who must use some MS-only program for work or school. Or to connect with work or school. That's a deal breaker.
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Right, and often, from there, many of these folks go on to blame the non-technical folks. That only compounds the problem.
@dangoodin Yeah. I mean, they’re not wrong… it’s hard to trust Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc these days. But there’s a good reason that it has never yet been “the year of Linux on the desktop.” I myself - a technical person - have irrevocably borked Linux installs to the point that the only option was to erase and start over, just by trying to install a piece of open source software on it.
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I appreciate everyone who has taken time to respond. Unfortunately, some of the responses demonstrate how much many of us privacy-minded technologists live in ivory towers and have no idea how hard it is to get the rest of the world to take on the added friction of switching.
@dangoodin I think this very thing is a large part of the problem. The exact people who care enough to use these alternatives despite the friction don't care enough to understand why others don't. Badgering, belittling, demeaning, and otherwise disregarding different lived experiences is the preferred response.
It's the same mindset as the people they criticize moved up the stack from technology to interpersonal relations.
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I appreciate everyone who has taken time to respond. Unfortunately, some of the responses demonstrate how much many of us privacy-minded technologists live in ivory towers and have no idea how hard it is to get the rest of the world to take on the added friction of switching.
@dangoodin I'm in the middle of setting up everything needed for immediate family to host what they need on either infra I control (or proton). Calendars, todo lists, docs, pictures, videos/media, LLMs etc.
It has been, and will continue to be, a royal PITA. But its all I can do to make the problem small enough to handle by myself. The good news is that this year my entire family suddenly has the intrinsic motivation to get off of these platforms. I just have to make it easy enough for them to be able to do it. And come up with ways to segment the few things that I can't control (work and school accounts like you mentioned)
Its difficult. Its slow. But since they are motivated I'm hopeful we can make it happen.
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@dangoodin I love how Linux is always the solution. Folks have no clue how regular people operate. If I were to hand a Linux laptop to any of the smart but non-technical folks I know, they’d struggle hard. Expecting them to install Linux or install and manage a number of FOSS tools? That’s not happening.
@thomasareed @dangoodin A Linux laptop with Linux and Firefox and OpenOffice (and Steam etc.) already installed isn't hard, my very non-technical family members have better time with it than with Windows. Though it's only marginally more secure, and even that in large part due to the platform's obscurity, only a little due to better product and design choices.
But setting it up or even just managing security updates for it? Managing passwords, passkeys, 2FA dongles? Big nope.
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@thomasareed @dangoodin A Linux laptop with Linux and Firefox and OpenOffice (and Steam etc.) already installed isn't hard, my very non-technical family members have better time with it than with Windows. Though it's only marginally more secure, and even that in large part due to the platform's obscurity, only a little due to better product and design choices.
But setting it up or even just managing security updates for it? Managing passwords, passkeys, 2FA dongles? Big nope.
@thomasareed @dangoodin Replacing Google Docs is hard enough (no, neither LibreOffice nor CryptPad are good enough), leaving behind the people who refuse to leave YouTube and Meta's anti-social hellscape is just not an option when you depend on those people in any way. And don't even get me started on using GrapheneOS with F-Droid and no GApps, you'd be better off with a flip phone.
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@dangoodin I love how Linux is always the solution. Folks have no clue how regular people operate. If I were to hand a Linux laptop to any of the smart but non-technical folks I know, they’d struggle hard. Expecting them to install Linux or install and manage a number of FOSS tools? That’s not happening.
@thomasareed @dangoodin just jumping in as someone who tested the Linux waters recently with a Raspberry Pi I wanted to use as a Plex server.
It took me 2 hours to figure out how to mount an external drive. Turns out because it had been used by Windows and I hadn't dismounted it in a certain way, it required some special handling. I persisted and got it working but the experience left me not wanting to ever try Linux again.
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@dangoodin I love how Linux is always the solution. Folks have no clue how regular people operate. If I were to hand a Linux laptop to any of the smart but non-technical folks I know, they’d struggle hard. Expecting them to install Linux or install and manage a number of FOSS tools? That’s not happening.
@thomasareed @dangoodin I don't think most people could install Windoze either. It's just that it's forced upon everyone when they purchase a new machine and buy peer pressure.
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@dangoodin I'm in the middle of setting up everything needed for immediate family to host what they need on either infra I control (or proton). Calendars, todo lists, docs, pictures, videos/media, LLMs etc.
It has been, and will continue to be, a royal PITA. But its all I can do to make the problem small enough to handle by myself. The good news is that this year my entire family suddenly has the intrinsic motivation to get off of these platforms. I just have to make it easy enough for them to be able to do it. And come up with ways to segment the few things that I can't control (work and school accounts like you mentioned)
Its difficult. Its slow. But since they are motivated I'm hopeful we can make it happen.
You're doing the lord's work, Varx!
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Even people with the most to lose continue to support and rely heavily on:
-- Google
-- Slack
-- Meta
-- Microsoft
-- Apple
-- Too many others to listThese orgs cozy up to authoritarianism. They terminate your account for any reason or no reaso at all. They shove AI down your throat.
And yet, my workplace, union, and so many of the orgs I value and need keep using them and have no plans to ween themselves off. Yes, I realize current dynamics make all of this inevitable.
So I'm left feeling hopeless and helpless, which is a terrible place to be.
@dangoodin I totally feel you. I have been a platform refusenik for many years and have found that people often take a depressingly compliant, conformist attitude towards all their technology decisions. They just do the most popular thing and feel that somebody else should be responsible for the consequences.
But strangely, after a few years of being the annoying guy at a party calling CEOs fascists (not a good tactic), followed by many years of being more "oh no sorry I'm not on FasciTalk. Here's my phone number/email." Things changed.
Now, sooo many people are starting to understand and take an interest in having more independent infrastructure. So I'm actually more optimistic than I've been since like 2007.
That said, I do find that you can't really convince anyone of anything. They have to come to their own conclusions on their own terms. But you can be supportive of people when they do, especially in helping them understand that FOSS solutions may be quite different from glossy corporate stuff and require community care and janitorial work.
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@thomasareed @dangoodin I don't think most people could install Windoze either. It's just that it's forced upon everyone when they purchase a new machine and buy peer pressure.
Fair, but that doesn't change the fact that moving to decentralized platforms adds more friction than non-technologists can tolerate.
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The privacy of sensitive union discussions is most def a battle worth picking.
@dangoodin @rk I keep bubbling this conversation up in my union. There is just so much inertia!
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Agreed. But no one seems to be doing that sucessfully, with maybe the exception of Signal and maybe Mastodon. Yes, others are trying but the usability is often lacking and the security is untested.
@dangoodin @markhurst -- maybe users could systematically keep their eyes on software, and encourage independent devs trying to make great software for them. i've been working nonstop forever, and it's impossible to get people even take a look at new stuff.
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Not to mention the non-trivial amount of work required. With Slack, you can register and account and host hundreds of people in 5 minutes. None of the Slack alternatives are that easy.
@dangoodin I’ve heard good things about Zulip as a Slack alternative and the signup for their cloud offering is just as easy.
They’re in the US but not “big tech”, and it’s open-source with free self-hosting if you prefer that or want to switch to it down the road. The only charges for self-hosting are for mobile notifications (since that requires their servers) and support contracts.
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And these unions aren't using any of the platforms listed in my OP? Impressive if so.
@dangoodin it's a misunderstanding: I was saying they have the capacity to write a plan and get off big tech.
not that they're actually doing it! 🙃
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@dangoodin @markhurst -- maybe users could systematically keep their eyes on software, and encourage independent devs trying to make great software for them. i've been working nonstop forever, and it's impossible to get people even take a look at new stuff.
Remember when the hype was that social media promised better awareness, connectivity, and propagation of ideas and innovation? It’s had the opposite effect. It’s now just like conservative media: the noise blots out almost all of the signal.
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@thomasareed @dangoodin I've had pretty good success doing this. Mint feels very like windows to the people I've helped. And most people are uncomfortable with Word etc. anyway, so Libreoffice is not too tough.
The rub is with people who must use some MS-only program for work or school. Or to connect with work or school. That's a deal breaker.
@MarvinFreeman @thomasareed @dangoodin Linux is much much easier than it was just a few years ago. It's also still not good enough for the supermajority of users.
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Even people with the most to lose continue to support and rely heavily on:
-- Google
-- Slack
-- Meta
-- Microsoft
-- Apple
-- Too many others to listThese orgs cozy up to authoritarianism. They terminate your account for any reason or no reaso at all. They shove AI down your throat.
And yet, my workplace, union, and so many of the orgs I value and need keep using them and have no plans to ween themselves off. Yes, I realize current dynamics make all of this inevitable.
So I'm left feeling hopeless and helpless, which is a terrible place to be.
@dangoodin Google and Apple are going to be the toughest ones to wean off of, for all of us. As an individual the alternative phones are, well, pretty dire and the OSes are Android-based anyway. As an org it’s hard to escape the vacuum pull of their app stores - in part due to the anticompetitive antics they’ve been allowed to get away with for so long.
I’m right there with you on the lost and hopeless front.
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@MarvinFreeman @thomasareed @dangoodin Linux is much much easier than it was just a few years ago. It's also still not good enough for the supermajority of users.
@mweiss @thomasareed @dangoodin Well, opinions and experience differ.
I've noticed the windows users frequently say things like "Why isn't it doing what I want?" They've grown accustomed to their computers baffling them.
My spouse, mother, and employees in my office found the transition to mint pretty easy. The standard gnome desktop would be tough though.
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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@francina1909 SI, dai, ti prego! E avvisami, che lo facciamo un coro. 🤬
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Oggi sono in agile. Mi ha telefonato la capa e le ho detto:"Ah, ti stavo giusto scrivendo una mail". Mi ha risposto:"Stavi facendo la tua attività preferita"...
....
🤔🤔🤔
Si legge:"Con tutte 'ste mail mi stai rompendo le piccole e grandi labbra"?(tentativo di uso femminista del linguaggio)😅
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Excited to be here at #fossbackstage seeing old friends and meeting new folks. Excellent to be in a space to discuss the policy and other non-technical aspects of the open source ecosystem. Oh, and a Fediwall right at the entrance! 🎉
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Piegano vestiti, corrono maratone, assemblano auto elettriche nelle fabbriche Xiaomi. E adesso sparano. Un’azienda americana di robotica chiamata Foundation ha inviato due robot umanoidi Phantom Mk-I sui campi di battaglia dell’Ucraina per missioni di ricognizione in prima linea.
"Pensiamo che ci sia un imperativo morale nel mandare questi robot in guerra al posto dei soldati in carne e ossa." ha dichiarato LeBlanc al Time. L’obiettivo è costruire Phantom fino a farne un robot capace di "usare qualsiasi tipo di arma che un essere umano può usare." Come i #Terminator, ha ammesso candidamente.🤦♂️
https://www.punto-informatico.it/robot-umanoidi-armati-guerra-ucraina-cosa-succede/
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È un progetto all'inizio, vedremo come va.
Sul mio Nextcloud personale ho installato onlyoffice, e non ho problemi coi file di Microsoft. Per dire che si può fare.
Poi forse l'obiettivo è anche usare meno possibile quei file. Su questo non ho capito bene ma immagino che di default si userà open document
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@Alberto @electricsheep @matz @simone @marcoboh @bradipo eh sì infatti l'ho scritto, a questo punto se proprio serve piuttosto Alipay (e non è che sia tanto meglio, ma piuttosto che i tecnonazisti americani)
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@ilsimoneviaggiatore partendo dal principio che il costo sia compatibile con Google Drive e Microsoft Sharepoint, e che in effetti si riesca davvero a editare i file word ed excel (pensate quanto ci ha messo Google per avere un risultato decente...) la cosa sarebbe sì interessante. Però secondo me quello che servirà è una massa critica di aziende, noi utenti finali contiamo poco...
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@ilsimoneviaggiatore grazie, ho capito. Quindi è un argomento di scarso interesse per l'utente comune, ma di alto interesse per le PMI
