Old English had two words for “knife”: ‘cnīf’ (the ancestor of ‘knife’) and ‘meteseax’.
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
@yvanspijk And probably Catalan "ganivet".
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I grew up in a town that received a lot of German immigrants in the 1800s. “Messerschmitt” was a common surname. Apparently’ “Knifemaker” (?)
Oh was confused at first but you are right, "Schmied" is the modern German equivalent for "smith" so I guess "schmitt" means the same.
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@fiee That's right!
'Kneif' and 'Kneip' are still listed in Duden, but they're indeed outdated.
@yvanspijk @fiee
They are used in local dialect words for "that one sharp kitchen knife". It has a different word in many dialects, but often a version of "kneip" is included.
Where I come from, it's "kniepchen"
This article is german, but has a map: https://www.zeit.de/zeit-magazin/2015/31/deutschlandkarte-kuechenmesser-dialekt -
@yvanspijk @fiee
They are used in local dialect words for "that one sharp kitchen knife". It has a different word in many dialects, but often a version of "kneip" is included.
Where I come from, it's "kniepchen"
This article is german, but has a map: https://www.zeit.de/zeit-magazin/2015/31/deutschlandkarte-kuechenmesser-dialekt@rainyday
Interesting. I’d guess some of these words stem from a manufacturer, e.g. “Schiller”, ”Abraham” and several “Teufel” derivates. -
@yvanspijk @fiee
They are used in local dialect words for "that one sharp kitchen knife". It has a different word in many dialects, but often a version of "kneip" is included.
Where I come from, it's "kniepchen"
This article is german, but has a map: https://www.zeit.de/zeit-magazin/2015/31/deutschlandkarte-kuechenmesser-dialekt -
Oh was confused at first but you are right, "Schmied" is the modern German equivalent for "smith" so I guess "schmitt" means the same.
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@rainyday
Interesting. I’d guess some of these words stem from a manufacturer, e.g. “Schiller”, ”Abraham” and several “Teufel” derivates.@fiee @yvanspijk
Teufel is devil. Because it is "the one sharp as hell kitchen knife", areas around franconia call it the cutting devil 😅
Abraham is a religious connotation, because if you cut yourself with it, you'll see him soon-ish.
Schiller I'm not sure, that is NL-inspired.
This kind of knife is much older than brand manufacturers, the names mostly come from faerie and other tall tales. Or describe what it does, in old and older words. -
@fiee @yvanspijk
Teufel is devil. Because it is "the one sharp as hell kitchen knife", areas around franconia call it the cutting devil 😅
Abraham is a religious connotation, because if you cut yourself with it, you'll see him soon-ish.
Schiller I'm not sure, that is NL-inspired.
This kind of knife is much older than brand manufacturers, the names mostly come from faerie and other tall tales. Or describe what it does, in old and older words.@rainyday
Possible. But I’d guess(!) at least some of the words aren’t older than houseware peddlers who might have sold knifes marked by their manufacturers.
E.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinel from 1890.Hier gibt’s Teufels Messer aus einem Familienbetrieb aus Franken, auch wenn die nicht ganz so alt sind:
https://www.kurier.de/inhalt.hollfeld-teuflisch-scharf-industriemesser-spezialist-imabt-erfindet-innovatives-messer.067eba34-1f76-44c9-b0c3-61a5d551194d.html -
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
@yvanspijk in Pajottegem (provincie Vlaams-Brabant in België) is er een drukkerij die 'De Knijf' heet. Ik weet niet of het woord daar in het lokaal dialect gebruikt wordt, maar het zou me niet verwonderen.
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@rainyday
Possible. But I’d guess(!) at least some of the words aren’t older than houseware peddlers who might have sold knifes marked by their manufacturers.
E.g. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinel from 1890.Hier gibt’s Teufels Messer aus einem Familienbetrieb aus Franken, auch wenn die nicht ganz so alt sind:
https://www.kurier.de/inhalt.hollfeld-teuflisch-scharf-industriemesser-spezialist-imabt-erfindet-innovatives-messer.067eba34-1f76-44c9-b0c3-61a5d551194d.html@fiee @yvanspijk
Yeah, some are boring, like Hamburg's "Kartoffelschälmesser", or Stuttgart's "Krabbenschächter" (😳 ?!)
"Groschenmesserschen" is just a knife for 10 ct.
Around the rhineland, "pitter" or "petter" is a boys' name, but can also mean "thingy". So they call it the kitchen thingy 😅
Some are weird, like "Lütt' Messer". Lütten are little girls. 😳
I have to admit that I only met Opinel after learning English, they weren't very well represented at least in NRW. Since Germany was always so good friends with France 🙈 , I don't think they have much of a market here. Probably more Swiss knives.
But I'm guessing too. My sources are growing up in NRW, but I haven't done a study 😇 -
@fiee @yvanspijk
Yeah, some are boring, like Hamburg's "Kartoffelschälmesser", or Stuttgart's "Krabbenschächter" (😳 ?!)
"Groschenmesserschen" is just a knife for 10 ct.
Around the rhineland, "pitter" or "petter" is a boys' name, but can also mean "thingy". So they call it the kitchen thingy 😅
Some are weird, like "Lütt' Messer". Lütten are little girls. 😳
I have to admit that I only met Opinel after learning English, they weren't very well represented at least in NRW. Since Germany was always so good friends with France 🙈 , I don't think they have much of a market here. Probably more Swiss knives.
But I'm guessing too. My sources are growing up in NRW, but I haven't done a study 😇Lütt just means small in lower German. (e.g. Lütt Matten der Has)
Opinels are/were very common with scouts and other outdoorers.
It’s just an example of “brand” knifes that were peddled before 1900. -
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Old English ‘cnīf’, the ancestor of ‘knife’, wasn’t attested until the 11th century. It came from Proto-Germanic *knībaz (“(pocket) knife”), perhaps – but not necessarily – via Old Norse ‘knífr’.
Its cognates include West Frisian ‘knyft’, ‘kniif’, obsolete Dutch ‘knijf’, Low Saxon/German ‘knyf’, German ‘Kneif’ (via Low Saxon/German), and archaic German ‘Kneip’. French ‘canif’ was borrowed from West Germanic.
@yvanspijk wow this is fantastic, my mother used to say “Kneipsche” (Hessian dialect) for a small pairing knife and I never knew why and where that came from.
Now that I see it, the relation to knife is painfully obvious of course… 😅
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... *messex if it had survived, but it didn’t even make it into Middle English. However, it does have living cognates in some of the sister languages of English, including German ‘Messer’ and Dutch ‘mes’.
In this post, you can hear and see how Dutch ‘mes’ and German ‘Messer’ evolved from Proto-Germanic, step by step. I also tell all about the difference between Proto-Germanic *matisahsan with an s and *matizahsan with a z (520 words, tier 1):
https://www.patreon.com/posts/messer-and-mes-936987552/
@yvanspijk does this have any link to "Mester" in English?
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@yvanspijk does this have any link to "Mester" in English?
@mgleadow No, that one's related to 'ministry' and French 'métier', from Latin 'ministerium'.
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Old English had two words for “knife”: ‘cnīf’ (the ancestor of ‘knife’) and ‘meteseax’.
‘Meteseax’ was a compound of two words. The first one was ‘mete’ (“food”), the ancestor of ‘meat’, whose meaning was later narrowed.
The other one was ‘seax’, which meant “sword” and is related to ‘Saxon’ and the surname ‘Sax’, on which the word ‘saxophone’ was based.
Zoom in on my new graphic to learn more.
‘Meteseax’ would’ve become ... 1/
@yvanspijk
Is "mete" meaning food related to the English term "to mete out" meaning to distribute? Feels like splitting food into portions fits the idiom. -
@yvanspijk
Is "mete" meaning food related to the English term "to mete out" meaning to distribute? Feels like splitting food into portions fits the idiom.@alyn No, 'to mete' comes from Proto-Germanic *metanan ("to measure"), which also became German 'messen' and Dutch 'meten'.
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