Fascinating story from a software dev Fedi friend, shared with permission to keep it anonymous:
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Fascinating story from a software dev Fedi friend, shared with permission to keep it anonymous:
❝A couple of days ago, I had an experience at work that made me understand one of the reasons why the chasm of opinion about LLMs is so deep and wide.
My department mostly does fiddly lowlevel work, [close to hardware]. A few of us don't use LLMs at all, a few use them sparingly, and one member is absolutely all-in. So during one of our morning meetings he suddenly started going off on a deeply disturbing diatribe about how we need to treat the LLMs “like slaves”.❞
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❝I said that I *absolutely in no way* want a slave, or a technology that simulates one. I want to do creative work using good tools. I *don't want* the experience of a slaver; in fact, I would go very far to never have that experience, because it is a demeaning and antihuman experience.❞
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❝I said that I *absolutely in no way* want a slave, or a technology that simulates one. I want to do creative work using good tools. I *don't want* the experience of a slaver; in fact, I would go very far to never have that experience, because it is a demeaning and antihuman experience.❞
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❝He was completely unable to understand why. He kept arguing that since the LLM isn't an actual conscious person (which is correct), it ought to be treated like a slave, and that the arc of technology is to give everyone access to their own virtual slaves.❞
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❝He was completely unable to understand why. He kept arguing that since the LLM isn't an actual conscious person (which is correct), it ought to be treated like a slave, and that the arc of technology is to give everyone access to their own virtual slaves.❞
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❝It was *impossible* for me or anyone else present to get him to understand that *we don't want slaves, simulated or otherwise*.
I've thought about that a lot in the days since.❞
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❝It was *impossible* for me or anyone else present to get him to understand that *we don't want slaves, simulated or otherwise*.
I've thought about that a lot in the days since.❞
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I agree with the storyteller: the experience of having a slave is abhorrent, simulated or not, and this story is a window into something •deep• about the present moment. Even without having slaves, we are all in danger of having a •slaver mindset•. It’s a disease that’s running rampant now in billionaire-shaped techno-utopian circles.
I wrote this thread on the topic earlier:
https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/113295613785073188
…and even having written that, it’s still shocking — not surprising, exactly, but shocking — to hear those thoughts expressed so baldly by the colleague in the story above.
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I agree with the storyteller: the experience of having a slave is abhorrent, simulated or not, and this story is a window into something •deep• about the present moment. Even without having slaves, we are all in danger of having a •slaver mindset•. It’s a disease that’s running rampant now in billionaire-shaped techno-utopian circles.
I wrote this thread on the topic earlier:
https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/113295613785073188
…and even having written that, it’s still shocking — not surprising, exactly, but shocking — to hear those thoughts expressed so baldly by the colleague in the story above.
@inthehands Norbert Wiener wrote in 1948, in the book that defined Cybernetics:
"Let us remember that the automatic machine is the precise economic equivalent of slave labor. Any labor which competes with slave labor must accept the economic consequences of slave labor.”
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I agree with the storyteller: the experience of having a slave is abhorrent, simulated or not, and this story is a window into something •deep• about the present moment. Even without having slaves, we are all in danger of having a •slaver mindset•. It’s a disease that’s running rampant now in billionaire-shaped techno-utopian circles.
I wrote this thread on the topic earlier:
https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/113295613785073188
…and even having written that, it’s still shocking — not surprising, exactly, but shocking — to hear those thoughts expressed so baldly by the colleague in the story above.
@inthehands Jesus that’s so dark. And the insistence that he doesn’t *want* a tool (inanimate), he *wants* a slave (animate). Which I can only interpret to mean he craves the ability to exploit, oppress and demean—without facing any social or moral consequence.
What a sickness.
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@inthehands Jesus that’s so dark. And the insistence that he doesn’t *want* a tool (inanimate), he *wants* a slave (animate). Which I can only interpret to mean he craves the ability to exploit, oppress and demean—without facing any social or moral consequence.
What a sickness.
@inthehands like, what is the difference between a tool and a slave that lacks consciousness? I can only think that it’s in the way you treat it. You can’t be cruel to a tool. You can’t dominate a tool. You can’t derive status from being above a tool.
Blechhhh
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@inthehands Norbert Wiener wrote in 1948, in the book that defined Cybernetics:
"Let us remember that the automatic machine is the precise economic equivalent of slave labor. Any labor which competes with slave labor must accept the economic consequences of slave labor.”
@emenel @inthehands complete tangent, but this is the big honking injustice at the center of that beloved children's story setting: Star Wars. The Old and New Republics are both slave states -- it is not a neutral fact that 3P0 calls Luke 'master'.
You can't unsee it.
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@emenel @inthehands complete tangent, but this is the big honking injustice at the center of that beloved children's story setting: Star Wars. The Old and New Republics are both slave states -- it is not a neutral fact that 3P0 calls Luke 'master'.
You can't unsee it.
@Unlikelylass @emenel
Yup. And the sin of the Empire is extending the slave boundary, not creating it. -
I agree with the storyteller: the experience of having a slave is abhorrent, simulated or not, and this story is a window into something •deep• about the present moment. Even without having slaves, we are all in danger of having a •slaver mindset•. It’s a disease that’s running rampant now in billionaire-shaped techno-utopian circles.
I wrote this thread on the topic earlier:
https://hachyderm.io/@inthehands/113295613785073188
…and even having written that, it’s still shocking — not surprising, exactly, but shocking — to hear those thoughts expressed so baldly by the colleague in the story above.
@inthehands I'm confused and feel like I'm missing something. But this feels like a category error.
No, we don't want slaves, real or virtual. But a machine cannot be enslaved, any more than a hammer can be. It's a tool, leave it alone and it does nothing. Tools are meant to be used.
Which is not to say that all tools are amoral, or should always be used. A machine to grind up puppies is a tool, sure, and also terrible and should not exist. But you did not force it to exist.
You don't want to treat people like tools, which is what slavery does - they're not people, they're machines, less than human.
You also don't want to treat machines as humans.
What am I missing? It feels this is like arguing over the taste of blue.
Edited to add: To be clear, I find this person's coworkers feelings to be terrible and seriously question the person's ethics and morality. So please don't take anything I'm saying as trying to excuse it. I just feel conclusions are being drawn that I don't see or understand
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@inthehands I'm confused and feel like I'm missing something. But this feels like a category error.
No, we don't want slaves, real or virtual. But a machine cannot be enslaved, any more than a hammer can be. It's a tool, leave it alone and it does nothing. Tools are meant to be used.
Which is not to say that all tools are amoral, or should always be used. A machine to grind up puppies is a tool, sure, and also terrible and should not exist. But you did not force it to exist.
You don't want to treat people like tools, which is what slavery does - they're not people, they're machines, less than human.
You also don't want to treat machines as humans.
What am I missing? It feels this is like arguing over the taste of blue.
Edited to add: To be clear, I find this person's coworkers feelings to be terrible and seriously question the person's ethics and morality. So please don't take anything I'm saying as trying to excuse it. I just feel conclusions are being drawn that I don't see or understand
@Bfordham
The category error you are making is thinking that the distinction is about the •tool• instead of the •mindset of the person• who is using the tool.I’d also be disturbed by somebody who thinks of their hammer as a slave.
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@inthehands like, what is the difference between a tool and a slave that lacks consciousness? I can only think that it’s in the way you treat it. You can’t be cruel to a tool. You can’t dominate a tool. You can’t derive status from being above a tool.
Blechhhh
@minmi @inthehands I dunno. One can be neglectful, abusive, or even purposely damage or destroy a tool. It does not have sentience, but the attitude of the user/abuser does say a lot. I've watched people bang the crap out of a hammer, chewing up the handle, and throwing it on the ground like an angry child.
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@minmi @inthehands I dunno. One can be neglectful, abusive, or even purposely damage or destroy a tool. It does not have sentience, but the attitude of the user/abuser does say a lot. I've watched people bang the crap out of a hammer, chewing up the handle, and throwing it on the ground like an angry child.
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@Unlikelylass @emenel
Yup. And the sin of the Empire is extending the slave boundary, not creating it.@inthehands @Unlikelylass @emenel Another one is the book Feet of Clay, by Terry Pratchett. Golems, artificial people, made to do work. Is it slavery? One of the characters says, "Of course it isn't. You might as well try to enslave a table." But it is.
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@inthehands @Unlikelylass @emenel Another one is the book Feet of Clay, by Terry Pratchett. Golems, artificial people, made to do work. Is it slavery? One of the characters says, "Of course it isn't. You might as well try to enslave a table." But it is.
@benfulton @inthehands @Unlikelylass @emenel hi, isn't there at least one book where a woman takes on the job to fight for their rights? The one where they invent the postal office, I think. My memory is fuzzy. And she is treated more seriously by the narrative than, say, Hermione fighting for elf rights. Admittedly a low bar.
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@benfulton @inthehands @Unlikelylass @emenel hi, isn't there at least one book where a woman takes on the job to fight for their rights? The one where they invent the postal office, I think. My memory is fuzzy. And she is treated more seriously by the narrative than, say, Hermione fighting for elf rights. Admittedly a low bar.
Yes, and over the course of several novels the golems free each other and become a (very odd) balancing force in the Discworld international system. Optimistic, but there’s not a surplus of that going around.
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@inthehands Norbert Wiener wrote in 1948, in the book that defined Cybernetics:
"Let us remember that the automatic machine is the precise economic equivalent of slave labor. Any labor which competes with slave labor must accept the economic consequences of slave labor.”
@emenel @jimbob @inthehands So labour-saving devices like dishwashers and washing machines are morally reprehensible, and the only ethical alternative is to do the work manually or pay someone a fair price for their time and labour? That’s quite a take…
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@emenel @jimbob @inthehands So labour-saving devices like dishwashers and washing machines are morally reprehensible, and the only ethical alternative is to do the work manually or pay someone a fair price for their time and labour? That’s quite a take…
You are confusing the words “economic” and “moral.”
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