Something I want to make clear:
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@sarahjamielewis/116161459299855467
Something I want to make clear:
The "age verification" bit of the CA/CO laws are not the bit I care about i.e. a law that requires an operating systems to implement some kind of parental control feature is...whatever.
The bits I care about are the obligations on developers to call APIs and then that invocation being taken as evidence of knowledge.
Specifically, I think a -legal- requirement to:
- make any kind of call is an attack on speech
- know a users age (bracket) is a privacy violation -
RE: https://mastodon.social/@sarahjamielewis/116161459299855467
Something I want to make clear:
The "age verification" bit of the CA/CO laws are not the bit I care about i.e. a law that requires an operating systems to implement some kind of parental control feature is...whatever.
The bits I care about are the obligations on developers to call APIs and then that invocation being taken as evidence of knowledge.
Specifically, I think a -legal- requirement to:
- make any kind of call is an attack on speech
- know a users age (bracket) is a privacy violationThe way I expect this to go down is that Android/iOS/etc. will roll out an age bracket API call in the near future and tie that API call to some set of foundational permissions (e.g. internet access / file access / etc) - they have done this in the past, notably for API deprecation.
A minimally invasive implementation of this will likely only restrict apps running if the OS itself is being run in a kids-mode .
(But that isn't what the laws actually require)
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The way I expect this to go down is that Android/iOS/etc. will roll out an age bracket API call in the near future and tie that API call to some set of foundational permissions (e.g. internet access / file access / etc) - they have done this in the past, notably for API deprecation.
A minimally invasive implementation of this will likely only restrict apps running if the OS itself is being run in a kids-mode .
(But that isn't what the laws actually require)
It's a very, very short jump from "the law requires you to call this API to know a users age" to "the law requires you to call this API to backdoor the rng"
The precedent of the former makes me very uneasy.
I cannot in good conscious support software on any platform subject to a jurisdiction that mandates such calls.
(I also think making the existence of parental controls settings on an OS as mandatory is also a little iffy, but in a less catastrophic way)
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It's a very, very short jump from "the law requires you to call this API to know a users age" to "the law requires you to call this API to backdoor the rng"
The precedent of the former makes me very uneasy.
I cannot in good conscious support software on any platform subject to a jurisdiction that mandates such calls.
(I also think making the existence of parental controls settings on an OS as mandatory is also a little iffy, but in a less catastrophic way)
Where I think this will end up:
Most commercial providers has been to slowly merge their mobile & desktop operating systems.
Android / ChromeOS are blending together
Mac / iOS are blending togetherBoth are very app store focused.
I suspect that eventually both platforms will at some point make the age bracket API call a global mandatory requirement.
Windows and Linux distros will likely trend towards a restricted mode for under-18 users, where such an API is available but not required.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@sarahjamielewis/116161459299855467
Something I want to make clear:
The "age verification" bit of the CA/CO laws are not the bit I care about i.e. a law that requires an operating systems to implement some kind of parental control feature is...whatever.
The bits I care about are the obligations on developers to call APIs and then that invocation being taken as evidence of knowledge.
Specifically, I think a -legal- requirement to:
- make any kind of call is an attack on speech
- know a users age (bracket) is a privacy violationMy reading of the law was that this is bad wording and was not the intent. The rest of it reads is if it means to say that if age verification is required for other legal purposes then you must use this 2-bit signal unless you already have some other information that you know is more accurate.
It should be easy to fix, it’s a shame they went through a load of revisions without fixing it (I didn’t look at the text of the old drafts, the error may have been introduced in editing).
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Where I think this will end up:
Most commercial providers has been to slowly merge their mobile & desktop operating systems.
Android / ChromeOS are blending together
Mac / iOS are blending togetherBoth are very app store focused.
I suspect that eventually both platforms will at some point make the age bracket API call a global mandatory requirement.
Windows and Linux distros will likely trend towards a restricted mode for under-18 users, where such an API is available but not required.
Given than Linux is open source though, how will any age restrictions actually be enforceable post installation?
Any code can be modified to bypass or modify any restrictions 😕🤷♂️
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Where I think this will end up:
Most commercial providers has been to slowly merge their mobile & desktop operating systems.
Android / ChromeOS are blending together
Mac / iOS are blending togetherBoth are very app store focused.
I suspect that eventually both platforms will at some point make the age bracket API call a global mandatory requirement.
Windows and Linux distros will likely trend towards a restricted mode for under-18 users, where such an API is available but not required.
@sarahjamielewis Where "Linux distros" means Ubuntu? I can't imagine reputable, non capitalist distros being on board with this.
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Given than Linux is open source though, how will any age restrictions actually be enforceable post installation?
Any code can be modified to bypass or modify any restrictions 😕🤷♂️
The point of this thread is that I don't care about enforcement at the point of use (you are correct that it's not enforceable), but I do care about the creation of legal liability at the point of distribution (which is very much enforceable, arbitrarily)
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@sarahjamielewis Where "Linux distros" means Ubuntu? I can't imagine reputable, non capitalist distros being on board with this.
@dalias Distros that are large enough to have a meaningful answer to the question "does there exist in a reasonable nexus under which we must assume liability under Californian or Coloradan state law (/however many other jurisdiction this legislation eventually pollutes into)"
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Given than Linux is open source though, how will any age restrictions actually be enforceable post installation?
Any code can be modified to bypass or modify any restrictions 😕🤷♂️
@sarahjamielewis @simonzerafa yeah...I'm quite curious on how they'll try to implement it
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Where I think this will end up:
Most commercial providers has been to slowly merge their mobile & desktop operating systems.
Android / ChromeOS are blending together
Mac / iOS are blending togetherBoth are very app store focused.
I suspect that eventually both platforms will at some point make the age bracket API call a global mandatory requirement.
Windows and Linux distros will likely trend towards a restricted mode for under-18 users, where such an API is available but not required.
@sarahjamielewis I share your concerns.
I doubt the GNU+Linux platform, overall, will comply unless every regional authority goes this way as well, and even then only distros with the means to actually do this will.
Now, it may effectively kill numerous distros, and I definitely view that as a bad thing.
All I can truly say with certainty, and I say this as a multi-decadal technology enthusiast, is that the world of technology isn't the fun, happy-go-lucky enthusiast space it used to be.
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The point of this thread is that I don't care about enforcement at the point of use (you are correct that it's not enforceable), but I do care about the creation of legal liability at the point of distribution (which is very much enforceable, arbitrarily)
To be honest I can't see the point of trying to enforce this post OS installation.
I can see some distro maintainers either trying their luck and trying to avoid official notice and running into trouble.
Ultimately every Linux user will be born on the 1st January 1970, so they whole exercise is pointless 🙂🤷♂️
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My reading of the law was that this is bad wording and was not the intent. The rest of it reads is if it means to say that if age verification is required for other legal purposes then you must use this 2-bit signal unless you already have some other information that you know is more accurate.
It should be easy to fix, it’s a shame they went through a load of revisions without fixing it (I didn’t look at the text of the old drafts, the error may have been introduced in editing).
I don't think the addition of such a prerequisite requirement meaningfully changes the issues with mandating an API call (it might however weaken the implied knowledge objection)
Requiring operating systems to provide a way to block applications based on age profiles would more than suffice, and not create the speech/privacy issues that the legislation currently does.
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@sarahjamielewis I share your concerns.
I doubt the GNU+Linux platform, overall, will comply unless every regional authority goes this way as well, and even then only distros with the means to actually do this will.
Now, it may effectively kill numerous distros, and I definitely view that as a bad thing.
All I can truly say with certainty, and I say this as a multi-decadal technology enthusiast, is that the world of technology isn't the fun, happy-go-lucky enthusiast space it used to be.
@QuarkMaker There are plenty of linux distros that maintained by people / companies subject to California or Colorado state law and many more that could be reasonably assumed to have such a nexus (office/conference hosting/donations/funding/grants etc.)
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I don't think the addition of such a prerequisite requirement meaningfully changes the issues with mandating an API call (it might however weaken the implied knowledge objection)
Requiring operating systems to provide a way to block applications based on age profiles would more than suffice, and not create the speech/privacy issues that the legislation currently does.
@sarahjamielewis That assumes that blocking an app is the desired thing, rather than age-gating some of the content (for example, consider a video streaming client that has age restrictions. These are currently implemented in a very ad-hoc way).
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Where I think this will end up:
Most commercial providers has been to slowly merge their mobile & desktop operating systems.
Android / ChromeOS are blending together
Mac / iOS are blending togetherBoth are very app store focused.
I suspect that eventually both platforms will at some point make the age bracket API call a global mandatory requirement.
Windows and Linux distros will likely trend towards a restricted mode for under-18 users, where such an API is available but not required.
Again to really hit the nail on the head since I am getting some replies about "how will they enforce this"
The age verification part is no enforceable, just enter 1/1/1970 as a birthdate.
The requirements on operating systems and developers to implement and use the functionality is very much enforceable against any developers/maintainers who reside in impacted states, and any projects who have significant ties to entities in those states (think: grants/funds/donors/conferences/offices)
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@sarahjamielewis That assumes that blocking an app is the desired thing, rather than age-gating some of the content (for example, consider a video streaming client that has age restrictions. These are currently implemented in a very ad-hoc way).
@david_chisnall @sarahjamielewis
It also assumes that the intent isn't to identify and track minors. -
@sarahjamielewis That assumes that blocking an app is the desired thing, rather than age-gating some of the content (for example, consider a video streaming client that has age restrictions. These are currently implemented in a very ad-hoc way).
Sure, but blocking achieves the goal of creating market conditions such that applications are encouraged to support different age profiles / content preferences without mandating an API call or obligate developers into implied knowledge.
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@dalias Distros that are large enough to have a meaningful answer to the question "does there exist in a reasonable nexus under which we must assume liability under Californian or Coloradan state law (/however many other jurisdiction this legislation eventually pollutes into)"
@sarahjamielewis I would think it would largely be "distros aiming to be included preinstalled on consumer devices" because commerce is the only way they're going to get away with enforcing such a regulation. Otherwise it comes down to a "forced speech" issue.
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@sarahjamielewis I would think it would largely be "distros aiming to be included preinstalled on consumer devices" because commerce is the only way they're going to get away with enforcing such a regulation. Otherwise it comes down to a "forced speech" issue.
@dalias soliciting donations/ accepting funding/sponsorship / hosting conferences is also commercial activity.
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@PaoloParti Interessante, è la stessa cosa che succede a me.. anche se io ho un OS diverso
