Fediverse & AI Coding Tools & Vibe Coding

[thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange]

Thanks for tagging me ... great poll, @reiver , curious what people think.

A lot of people want an AI-free zone (in fact I'm working on an article about that) and for most of the people I've talked to that includes AI-based code. On the other hand a lot of people see AI-based coding as a useful tool, and think that its value in making them faster outweighs the harm data centers (especially to marginalized communities) and the fact that the data the current generation AI tools were trained on was gathered without consent. As an added complication, I've heard from quite a few developers that AI-generated bug submissions and bug reports are a huge problem. So I expect what we'll see is that decisions will be made on a project-by-project basis ... which is very much in the spiirt of fedi!

@onepict

[onepict@chaos.social]

@thenexusofprivacy @reiver Well to give you an idea what I really think. I suspect we're both pointing at the same incident.

https://dotart.blog/cobbles/ai-and-that-guy-at-the-bar

[drwho@masto.hackers.town]

@reiver Write only code that can't be readily fixed is a security disaster waiting to happen.

[pre@boing.world]

@reiver If by "we" you mean you, and you want to help, then sure. Better if their software doesn't suck.

I ain't likely to do anything personally though.

[johannab@cosocial.ca]

@onepict @thenexusofprivacy @reiver

Thanks for the thought-provoking thread. Much to crunch through here yet.

I'm about to start a co-curricular work-study workshop that I suspect is going to be very vibe-coding related. Going in as a skeptic but one who likes to understand what I'm ranting about.

I'm doing another project right now where we were encouraged to use image generation for our reports. Not impressed, but I have to use my organic, slow brain and fingers to write out WHY.

[johannab@cosocial.ca]

@fedicat @reiver

you know, after half a lifetime working in varying roles that amount to "making tech work for humans" ... the root cause is nearly always somewhere in the wetware.

Technology - tools, be it a hammer or some fantastical concept of an AI doctor to cure all your meat-suit mishaps - are not neutral because they are all human-created and human used. Even this one.

We've just unleashed a particularly large hammer, and allowed it into the hands of a abusive subset of us.

[julian@activitypub.space]

@smallcircles@social.coop AI is exceedingly good at being a sounding board for ideas. You just need to get past the relentless sycophantic responses, and think critically about each response.

If you even hint at it, AI will gladly tell you how to build a hammer to solve all your problems.

The problem is that some people use AI as a shortcut to no longer think.

cc @reiver@mastodon.social @fedicat@pc.cafe @johannab@cosocial.ca

[dansup@mastodon.social]

@reiver Vibe coding is a gateway to learning how to code, I'm all for it!

[uwehalfhand@norcal.social]

@dansup @reiver Is it? It may be a gateway to actually developing small to medium apps, but I think it’s becoming increasingly clear that it removes the learning aspect (not just of programming, but writing and graphic design etc too).

[aj@social.dunevent.net]

@reiver@mastodon.social

Overall, I'm anti-"vibe coding" because new coders don't always know enough to see the logical fallacies, security vulnerabilities, etc. It's not usually a big deal if you're just making a simple desktop app but it can have huge implications for software that is open to the internet, has an expectation of properly handling user data, and needs to compatibly interoperate with other servers. Also, the energy and theft problems inherent to all "AI" use.

But I think we should be pragmatic. "Vibe coding" not going anywhere, so doing what we can to help keep everyone as safe as we can while stopping poorly understood code from DDOSing across the fediverse is the more mature path.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't discourage "vibe code" or at least encourage gaining education and/or experience before relying on it, though.

[faraiwe@mstdn.social]

@reiver #LLM use is antithetical to the principles of freedom of Internet, so dear to the #fediverse

They're tools of control, by large corporations, which use their revenue and influence to erode democracy, concentrate wealth, take power away from people. Exactly the opposite of what fediverse stands for.

"Vibe coding" is an insult to any and everyone who dedicated effort, time to learn to code.

[fedicat@pc.cafe]

@reiver and, I would like to add, who they're politically supporting with that money

[julian@activitypub.space]

@uwehalfhand@norcal.social I feel we're conflating vibe coding with plain AI usage as an assistant.

There's absolutely no pedagogical value to vibe coding.

cc @fedicat@pc.cafe @reiver@mastodon.social

[liaizon@social.wake.st]

@julian I can say as someone who has learned quite a lot about a bunch of super technical topics from doing some exploration of vibe coding that I completely disagree with this sentiment. I think the companies and ways the AI industry is operating is horrid and abysmal but those two things shouldn't be conflated.

[julian@activitypub.space]

@liaizon@social.wake.st what do you define vibe coding as?

Vibe coding is prompting, followed by copy-paste, and then re-prompting with the error message, repeat.

In no step there is any critical thinking.

If you are inspecting the generated code, applying it judiciously, and asking questions back to further understand the decisions made, you are not vibe coding.

[smallcircles@social.coop]

@julian @reiver @fedicat @johannab

Yes, I've tried AI as a brainstorming assistant, and if you keep a keen eye on the conversation it works great. And there are many other good uses too.

But I feel that the net effect of AI on the fabric of our society will be quite negative, making regular people overly reliant on exploitative technology they do not own.

Huge AI bubble or not, it may be a passed station, and AI here to stay. Tech comes 1st, technology progress decoupled from human progress.

[smallcircles@social.coop]

@julian @reiver @fedicat @johannab

> The problem is that some people use AI as a shortcut to no longer think.

The issue is bigger than that, I think. One needs expertise to work with AI responsibly, and recognize where it goes off the rails. In our own expert areas we invested the time to be able to correct AI output.

In all other areas, where we'll have to use hastily-introduced AI, we too are unable to detect its flaws. While AI poses as expert on anything, and is integrated everywhere.

[smallcircles@social.coop]

@julian @reiver @fedicat @johannab

Furthermore I guess the killer app for AI is "Autoritarianism". Allow a small group of bad actors to control entire populations, by letting AI wade through the wealth of information collected via surveillance capitalism, weeding out patterns of resistance well before it becomes any serious threat. And a dictator doesn't care about that 5% error margin, where the AI got it wrong.

[smallcircles@social.coop]

@julian @reiver @fedicat @johannab

Need only look at Palantir porting the operations of the US government to AI systems, and similar corporations (entire supply lines), to see this worrying trend.

[tchambers@indieweb.social]

@reiver @dansup
We should embrace any tools that respect creators privacy and produce safe code and that can enable new creative “minimal viable products” apps to ship even if they are likely to need to mature using more traditional programming later.