I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
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@401matthall I completely share the ideal of a public-good community owned social network. I just don't think it's the *only* way forward. And it's far from easy to sustain. You still need to fundraise money for the foundation to maintain the software etc. I think there is potentially a better way. I may be wrong.
@nicobao @401matthall I think you would do yourself a big favor if you read up on anti-capitalism. Being anti-capitalist does not mean one doesn't deserve to be payed for their labor. It doesn't mean one doesn't fundraise or use money as an exchange of goods or services.
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@nicobao @401matthall I think you would do yourself a big favor if you read up on anti-capitalism. Being anti-capitalist does not mean one doesn't deserve to be payed for their labor. It doesn't mean one doesn't fundraise or use money as an exchange of goods or services.
@liaizon @401matthall any recommendations for reading materials?
I think it's pretty objective to say there is a problem between funding public goods versus venture capital where most of the money is. It's well studied and I've read a bit about it already. I'm all for alternative forms of financing. That's why I'm interested in the crypto space as well. I'm happy to learn about new ways to co-finance public goods sustainably. -
@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon
Just trying to help you out here:
- you came in to quote toot aggressively and have mentioned the (part of the?) Fediverse's "extreme political ideology" it makes you run away,
- its mob mentality,
- how when people say stuff about you it's defamation and extreme and people need introspection,
- it is harassment,
- we guys are oppressing you,
- we guys are mobs,
- it's insanebut on the other hand, when you say stuff it's "what am I oppressing?"
@adriano @squeakypancakes @liaizon the only problem I had was misinterpreting my point and saying I'm pro genocide or stuff like that. It's ok to disagree with me on anarchist/anti capitalist and protocol stuff since that's what I called for.
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I hope you don't mind @nicobao I federated your reply over here. As the cofounder and CTO of a company "Agora helps people overcome disagreement and find consensus, for more democratic and efficient decision-making." I would recommend doing some research into the ideologies that underline all of the decentralized protocols that exist and where they came from.
@liaizon @nicobao nonsense neo-liberal unpolitics
Believing that the systems we have established to channel disagreement into Not Murder™ will somehow always inherently cease to function if consensus is impossible. While also allowing democratic mechanisms that ensure Not Murder™ to be undermined by never allowing the replacement unpopular policy arrangements, through consistently calling for moderation whenever anyone suggests that the status quo needs fundamental change of any kind whatsoever -
@liaizon I think Bsky/atp has already won the protocol war in the sense that it will be the dominant mainstream federated social media platform of the future (unfortunately). I think there's a few reasons why this happened. one is that it was a closer like for like X/Twitter replacement during the musk takeover and only had a single instantiation at the time vs Masto/fedi having a bunch and needing an explainer about them. I also think that therev was a decent amount of FUD that was put out at the time about fedi being confusing that hindered its adoption. lastly I think "big" accounts were put off by the idea of server level defederation. Someday I think someone will write the post-mortem of the Twitter succession crisis and I feel these 3 things will be key points for why bsky gained momentum
@Bike @liaizon Personally, I think a major factor in how ATProto/Bsky works "better" than ActivityPub is that your DID can be used across sites using the same protocol. You can login to "Popfeed" (like Goodreads, Backloggr, etc.) with your Bsky account and immediately see the content of people you're following.
With ActivityPub you can get Mastodon to operate with say Lemmy in a very janky way. Otherwise you're logging into multiple accounts. Better than the current web but worse than Bsky imo
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I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
my 2 cents:
- on atproto development is easier just because sucking from the usual VC money: everyone is on a basically unlimited pds for now, you code whatever you want and then people can use it and they save the stuff on bluesky pds; basically it's almost like making bots on telegram more than really using decentralization
- if people had to start choosing a PDS, they would have to start guessing which one they can pay, which one is local to their town, which one will limit them and which one will just have a subscription
- bluesky is just methadone for twitter americans
- anyone can make apps because they don't care about standards so you get no interoperability between themAs per now i'd say that bluesky is a flash in the pan. I envy the architecture that allows them to have portable identity and feeds, but 1/2
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@Bike @liaizon Personally, I think a major factor in how ATProto/Bsky works "better" than ActivityPub is that your DID can be used across sites using the same protocol. You can login to "Popfeed" (like Goodreads, Backloggr, etc.) with your Bsky account and immediately see the content of people you're following.
With ActivityPub you can get Mastodon to operate with say Lemmy in a very janky way. Otherwise you're logging into multiple accounts. Better than the current web but worse than Bsky imo
@Bike @liaizon I'm sure many do NOT want their accounts to be connected like this so they'll probably create a separate one anyway.
In terms of actual federation, AP is still miles better but I think Bsky handles it in a more user-friendly way. You can go from the primary instance+PDS and freely move your content without losing posts, making a new account, etc. basically, I think AP issues lie in the UX. Your average user will not understand the protocol or its shortcomings.
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@liaizon @Bike seems like the "mainstream" is still very much TBD. In the big picture it has almost no adoption, is losing active users by the day and all the supposed other applications for ATproto are virtually unused currently.
5 million MAU really isn't much and the startup is also probably going to have to find more funding soon.
Of course it's possible that all the excitement leads to newly found success but it doesn't seem like there's anything suggesting that is an inevitability.
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my 2 cents:
- on atproto development is easier just because sucking from the usual VC money: everyone is on a basically unlimited pds for now, you code whatever you want and then people can use it and they save the stuff on bluesky pds; basically it's almost like making bots on telegram more than really using decentralization
- if people had to start choosing a PDS, they would have to start guessing which one they can pay, which one is local to their town, which one will limit them and which one will just have a subscription
- bluesky is just methadone for twitter americans
- anyone can make apps because they don't care about standards so you get no interoperability between themAs per now i'd say that bluesky is a flash in the pan. I envy the architecture that allows them to have portable identity and feeds, but 1/2
@liaizon it's cringe to have to have to double toot for half of a single sentence but here we are lol
but it's nothing that we cannot replicate on the fedi.
I'll add something just to make this second toot worth lol:
What i actually think fedi is missing out is proselitism to political actors. I'm fine not having the social media aspects on this social network but it's not fine not having the possibility to have local news actually worth to know, because that's, theoritecally, the strenght of the federated model 2/2
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@okaylub @liaizon @Bike right, I would say the difference is not necessarily that significant when the Threads userbase is like 50x and the X userbase also remains at that level.
Mastodon also got its mainstream moment a bit earlier and that faded. It is possible it is just a temporary thing for BSky also, the overall direction has certainly been back out from any mainstream relevance so far for it too.
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@squeakypancakes @liaizon And even if I'm wrong and it's not extremist. What I am oppressing by saying those words and barely disagreeing with you? (though this was a post on Bluesky I was not even talking to you)
You guys need seriously introspection
From my read they just seem to be disagreeing with you, not interfering with your ability to speak. I see no oppression here.
And demanding openness in money and other support is hardly extreme.
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@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
@liaizon @Bike
Na... bluesky will eventually entshittified at some point and mastodon will still be there.It is not something we have to win, I am pretty happy that my mastodon feed is nazi-free, I am pretty sure it would be different there (but it will NOT go and check).
I got discussions here I never had on twitter (even when twitter was good).
The philosophy is different, and if it means it cannot win the game, then I will be happy losing. -
@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon the concept of extremism is moot in a headspace that sprung from monarchism and might makes right
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@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon the concept of extremism is moot in a headspace that sprung from monarchism and might makes right
@nicobao or at least it should be defined by ones internal compass, in which case anarchism is close to home and by no means extreme
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@liaizon you're taking this WAY too personally, while we don't even know each other. I am very much entitled to my own opinion, btw, cofounder of Agora or not. I am not an anticapitalist anarchist, fine, so what? What the heck is this ad hominem attack? The whole point of Agora is to get people to talk to each other, people who usually don't appreciate each other, without trolling, and finding common ground. Your very reaction shows exactly why I build it.
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I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
@liaizon I’m not sure who “we” is. There’s this constant competition y’all seem to want to foster. I’m staying way the fuck away from anything that’s chasing VC funding. But honestly, that’s just me. The more choice people have, the better. People have had these fears for a long time but ActivityPub just keeps on chugging along.
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@liaizon i think one factor the ap ecosystem could do a lot better at is finding nodes for ap devs to aggregate around. part of atproto ecosystem dev speed is technical, but other important part is how atproto has a much more legible dev ecosystem that constantly interacts with each other. ap dev ecosystem is much more fragmented, with very little interaction between the devs
@laurenshof @liaizon interactions between AP software devs is painful to watch sometimes, and the lack of interest from imolementers to work on standards is truly impressive.
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@laurenshof @liaizon interactions between AP software devs is painful to watch sometimes, and the lack of interest from imolementers to work on standards is truly impressive.
@thisismissem @laurenshof I really really don't understand why so many ap devs just refuse altogether to participate in the standardiazion process. I wonder how we could make FEPs more exciting for people. How much of this is a vibe thing
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@thisismissem @laurenshof I really really don't understand why so many ap devs just refuse altogether to participate in the standardiazion process. I wonder how we could make FEPs more exciting for people. How much of this is a vibe thing
@liaizon @laurenshof because politics and fights and strong opinions divide us.
Standards work, particularly at the W3C, attracts a certain type of person, and that's usually very different to builders.
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