I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
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@neauoire @liaizon that's a fair point and I do respect the Palestine argument. I didn't even know this information until OP pointed it out. I fully respect this take and I do not consider this extremist, and even if I did well we can discuss it normally.
My problem is my initial tweet was reacting to the anarchist/anti capitalist/anti VC ethos which is way more objectively, an extremist PoV (which is fine. Just not my cup of tea).
It's a misunderstanding.
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@liaizon this story feels a lot like the solid project https://solidproject.org/
Big splash at the beginning, some nerds get involved... but it's been years now, and when I tried to actually use one of the apps using it, UX was atrocious and I had to join a matrix room to get it working. Now I know I'm not the l33test hacker, but come on!
@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
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@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.
To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.
The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.
I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.
@stefan @liaizon things that may be in the way of that are:
1. fully independent communities don't seem to come cheap with ATproto
2. there's almost no effort to get people to anything else besides the corporate servers so the alternate infrastructure is unlikely to be at a scale that would support any significant migrations at that point
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@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
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@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.
To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.
The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.
I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.
@stefan @liaizon that said I wish Mastodon tried to work a bit more like an project that puts the open source development process first, seems like the team is pretty secretive about how and what they work on except for the very high level overview. I doubt it is a very good recipe for attracting outside devs.
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Just because something isn't an insult for you, doesn't make the application of it by you any less of an attempt at an insult.
And because a number of people on Fedi may disagree with you, doesn't make it a mob mentality. It means that people have been subjected to those rhetorical tools in the past, generally in bad faith as a form of harm, and it is likely you are pissing off even more people because of your particular (and somewhat tone deaf) perspective.
@undead @liaizon the thing is I didn't ask to come here. OP took a screenshot, posted it here and then I received all these notifications misinterpreting my tweet and accusing me of things I don't even mean.
I genuinely do not like the "mob" mentality of ANY community. It's human nature but it's most of all a byproduct of "twitter-like" social apps
I get your point though I should have better phrased that initial tweet. I would have avoided unwillingly offending people and creating this drama. -
@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
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@douginamug @liaizon bluesky and fediverse can be interoperable through bridges, so neither needs to 'win'.
at the same time they're both kind of shaped to be different things: one is a "social networking layer" and one is a "social networking app" on top of a more general app developemt substrate
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@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
@ikuturso @rosano @douginamug a lot has changed in recent months on this front.
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@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.
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@liaizon Seems to me that development on AT sped up *at the expense of* development on AP.
That is to say, a lot of the people who've gone all-in on AT were building here before, but have pretty much abandoned AP development. And it's worth examining why AT development was so much more appealing for those folks.
I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.
You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.
I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:
https://mastodon.social/@reiver/114208310829137604
(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)
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@undead @liaizon the thing is I didn't ask to come here. OP took a screenshot, posted it here and then I received all these notifications misinterpreting my tweet and accusing me of things I don't even mean.
I genuinely do not like the "mob" mentality of ANY community. It's human nature but it's most of all a byproduct of "twitter-like" social apps
I get your point though I should have better phrased that initial tweet. I would have avoided unwillingly offending people and creating this drama.@nicobao @undead you directly participated in this discussion by quote posting my post here with your commentary on the other side of the bridge. If you didn't want to participate in the discussion you could have simply not quoted me. I brought you back into this side of the discussion by tagging you directly cause I saw you also had an account here and I thought your view (while very different then mine) to be worth including directly.
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@ikuturso @rosano @douginamug a lot has changed in recent months on this front.
@liaizon if you're just referring to there finally being at least one example of all the pieces of the puzzle being run third-party (or close to that) etc. like @rosano seems to be suggesting I think these are still baby steps especially if we are talking about regular people actively using and understanding in significant numbers.
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I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.
You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.
I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:
https://mastodon.social/@reiver/114208310829137604
(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)
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It is a very, very, very small percentage of the Fediverse that is engaging this in abusive, hyper-aggressive bullying behavior.
But, they have had a negative effect on the Fediverse.
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@nicobao @undead you directly participated in this discussion by quote posting my post here with your commentary on the other side of the bridge. If you didn't want to participate in the discussion you could have simply not quoted me. I brought you back into this side of the discussion by tagging you directly cause I saw you also had an account here and I thought your view (while very different then mine) to be worth including directly.
@liaizon @undead fair enough! Drama over. I'm happy to discuss protocol philosophies. I think the activity pub approach to funding is probably the most ideologically pure as ideally social protocols are supposed to be public good. Like water infrastructure. So it makes sense that it's co-owned.
Where I disagree is that I think it's hard but *possible* to involve for-profit incentives in a way that doesn't prevent the network from flourishing. -
@liaizon @undead fair enough! Drama over. I'm happy to discuss protocol philosophies. I think the activity pub approach to funding is probably the most ideologically pure as ideally social protocols are supposed to be public good. Like water infrastructure. So it makes sense that it's co-owned.
Where I disagree is that I think it's hard but *possible* to involve for-profit incentives in a way that doesn't prevent the network from flourishing.@liaizon @undead The reason why I have such a strong opinion against activity pub is that I saw, among other horror stories, how one of the most prominent "cypherpunk" builders of the ETH community that tried to migrate from X have been banned by a large ActivityPub server for being a "capitalist". So probably what I dislike is NOT the ideologies per se (if anything I appreciate the ideal), but really, it's the mob mentality.
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@liaizon @undead The reason why I have such a strong opinion against activity pub is that I saw, among other horror stories, how one of the most prominent "cypherpunk" builders of the ETH community that tried to migrate from X have been banned by a large ActivityPub server for being a "capitalist". So probably what I dislike is NOT the ideologies per se (if anything I appreciate the ideal), but really, it's the mob mentality.
@liaizon @undead And the server-based moderation doesn't help here. Users feel trapped, it makes things worse. But to be fair it's not specific to activity pub. Bluesky has its own echo chamber, and X as well. But at least the underlying philosophy behind atproto tries to create bridge between groups rather than segregating them in echo chambers.
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I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.
You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.
I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:
https://mastodon.social/@reiver/114208310829137604
(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)
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@reiver @liaizon I would guess that the person who told you that had been involved in an opt-in/opt-out dispute. That seems to be the development issue that exercises fediverse users the most. Which is not to excuse the behavior, but that /is/ one fundamental cultural difference between here and there: Opt-out is the default assumption there. (Which is borne out by the next post in your thread, where a dev says they prefer BS because it provides the user data needed for an AI-driven filter.)
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@liaizon if you're just referring to there finally being at least one example of all the pieces of the puzzle being run third-party (or close to that) etc. like @rosano seems to be suggesting I think these are still baby steps especially if we are talking about regular people actively using and understanding in significant numbers.
@liaizon @rosano just to give some examples of the issues end users face even on ATproto when there's decentralization:
- where should I register is still a source of confusion
- you will still run into https://bsky.app/ links that you need to figure out can be accessed through your own app whatever that may be
- your provider going down will still cause you to lose your data unless you've been making backupsThe more complex architecture adds even more potential sources of confusion IMO
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@reiver @liaizon I would guess that the person who told you that had been involved in an opt-in/opt-out dispute. That seems to be the development issue that exercises fediverse users the most. Which is not to excuse the behavior, but that /is/ one fundamental cultural difference between here and there: Opt-out is the default assumption there. (Which is borne out by the next post in your thread, where a dev says they prefer BS because it provides the user data needed for an AI-driven filter.)
Just to say it explicitly, for anyone else reading this:
Regarding:
AI & BS vs FediNowadays, when most people say "AI" they tend to mean LLMs and Diffusion Models.
But. the type of AI referred to in that post is not an LLM or Diffusion Model. But the type of AI that has been around for decades, most people (in certain parts of the world) already use (whether they realize it or not)
Ex of that other type of AI: anti-SPAM filters, reading hand written address on mail, etc.
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