I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.

[rosano@mastodon.online]

@douginamug @liaizon bluesky and fediverse can be interoperable through bridges, so neither needs to 'win'.

at the same time they're both kind of shaped to be different things: one is a "social networking layer" and one is a "social networking app" on top of a more general app developemt substrate

[liaizon@social.wake.st]

@ikuturso @rosano @douginamug a lot has changed in recent months on this front.

[rosano@mastodon.online]

@ikuturso see blacksky https://blacksky.community or read https://blog.mauve.moe/posts/decentralized-social-media

[reiver@mastodon.social]

@lrhodes @liaizon

I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.

You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.

I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:

https://mastodon.social/@reiver/114208310829137604

(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)

...

[liaizon@social.wake.st]

@nicobao @undead you directly participated in this discussion by quote posting my post here with your commentary on the other side of the bridge. If you didn't want to participate in the discussion you could have simply not quoted me. I brought you back into this side of the discussion by tagging you directly cause I saw you also had an account here and I thought your view (while very different then mine) to be worth including directly.

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@liaizon if you're just referring to there finally being at least one example of all the pieces of the puzzle being run third-party (or close to that) etc. like @rosano seems to be suggesting I think these are still baby steps especially if we are talking about regular people actively using and understanding in significant numbers.

@douginamug

[reiver@mastodon.social]

@lrhodes @liaizon

It is a very, very, very small percentage of the Fediverse that is engaging this in abusive, hyper-aggressive bullying behavior.

But, they have had a negative effect on the Fediverse.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@liaizon @undead fair enough! Drama over. I'm happy to discuss protocol philosophies. I think the activity pub approach to funding is probably the most ideologically pure as ideally social protocols are supposed to be public good. Like water infrastructure. So it makes sense that it's co-owned.
Where I disagree is that I think it's hard but *possible* to involve for-profit incentives in a way that doesn't prevent the network from flourishing.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@liaizon @undead The reason why I have such a strong opinion against activity pub is that I saw, among other horror stories, how one of the most prominent "cypherpunk" builders of the ETH community that tried to migrate from X have been banned by a large ActivityPub server for being a "capitalist". So probably what I dislike is NOT the ideologies per se (if anything I appreciate the ideal), but really, it's the mob mentality.

[nicobao@fosstodon.org]

@liaizon @undead And the server-based moderation doesn't help here. Users feel trapped, it makes things worse. But to be fair it's not specific to activity pub. Bluesky has its own echo chamber, and X as well. But at least the underlying philosophy behind atproto tries to create bridge between groups rather than segregating them in echo chambers.

[lrhodes@merveilles.town]

@reiver @liaizon I would guess that the person who told you that had been involved in an opt-in/opt-out dispute. That seems to be the development issue that exercises fediverse users the most. Which is not to excuse the behavior, but that /is/ one fundamental cultural difference between here and there: Opt-out is the default assumption there. (Which is borne out by the next post in your thread, where a dev says they prefer BS because it provides the user data needed for an AI-driven filter.)

[ikuturso@mastodon.social]

@liaizon @rosano just to give some examples of the issues end users face even on ATproto when there's decentralization:
- where should I register is still a source of confusion
- you will still run into https://bsky.app/ links that you need to figure out can be accessed through your own app whatever that may be
- your provider going down will still cause you to lose your data unless you've been making backups

The more complex architecture adds even more potential sources of confusion IMO

[reiver@mastodon.social]

@lrhodes @liaizon

Just to say it explicitly, for anyone else reading this:

Regarding:
AI & BS vs Fedi

Nowadays, when most people say "AI" they tend to mean LLMs and Diffusion Models.

But. the type of AI referred to in that post is not an LLM or Diffusion Model. But the type of AI that has been around for decades, most people (in certain parts of the world) already use (whether they realize it or not)

Ex of that other type of AI: anti-SPAM filters, reading hand written address on mail, etc.