This is sad 😢
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@dazo it's just naive to believe that individual decisions could solve regulation issues.
And asking people to make major sacrifices to their workflows just for political reasons is an incredibly privileged position.@mxk It's naive when you stand alone. Just as it is naive to call a single waterdrop a sea.
When individuals unite, it becomes a movement which can cause a change.
How else do you think Linux became the dominant server OS on the Internet? It all started with with a single individual saying:
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.
Now it is available for lots of platforms and used "everywhere". There are tons of such examples.
People must unite. And even "going with the flow" of what "everyone else uses" is exactly the same thing. You've just joined a different movement.
If nobody does nothing, nothing will ever change.
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@mxk It's naive when you stand alone. Just as it is naive to call a single waterdrop a sea.
When individuals unite, it becomes a movement which can cause a change.
How else do you think Linux became the dominant server OS on the Internet? It all started with with a single individual saying:
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones.
Now it is available for lots of platforms and used "everywhere". There are tons of such examples.
People must unite. And even "going with the flow" of what "everyone else uses" is exactly the same thing. You've just joined a different movement.
If nobody does nothing, nothing will ever change.
@dazo Linux got adoption due to its features, not because of politics.
Some people might work on it out of idealism, but wide adoption and financing come from Linux actually being a useful project.
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@dazo Linux got adoption due to its features, not because of politics.
Some people might work on it out of idealism, but wide adoption and financing come from Linux actually being a useful project.
Linux got adoption due to its features, not because of politics.
Not quite so simple. You skip why Linux was created in the beginning. It was because there was no affordable Unix alternatives available to students.
All the features we take for granted in Linux today was lacking in the beginning. It was a pretty limited OS in the beginning, only supporting a very limited set of hardware.
But Linux got adoption because it was a community wanting to builds something better, which happened to happen in the open. And it gained features through open collaboration. It was not a commercial drive itself which gave Linux the adoption.
What gave adoption was the freedom it delivered. You can call freedom a feature in this context. And others have tried to stop Linux from gaining success over the years; from Microsoft calling it a cancer, to SCO suing it for copyright issues.
The reason more and more companies decided to bet on Linux, support it in various ways, the reason some companies tried to fight Linux ... they are all based in (corporate/business) politics.
What Mozilla is doing is contrary to this. And Firefox is the immediate collateral damage, which makes the whole browser scope more difficult unless a sustainable alternative surfaces. The Chrome/Chromium dominance today is therefore a considerable threat for an open, free and sustainable browser experience.
We have already been down this path before, with Internet Explorer. We don't need to repeat these mistakes. In that sense, the Chrome browser "saved us" back then. Now Chrome/Chromium has become the new threat.
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Linux got adoption due to its features, not because of politics.
Not quite so simple. You skip why Linux was created in the beginning. It was because there was no affordable Unix alternatives available to students.
All the features we take for granted in Linux today was lacking in the beginning. It was a pretty limited OS in the beginning, only supporting a very limited set of hardware.
But Linux got adoption because it was a community wanting to builds something better, which happened to happen in the open. And it gained features through open collaboration. It was not a commercial drive itself which gave Linux the adoption.
What gave adoption was the freedom it delivered. You can call freedom a feature in this context. And others have tried to stop Linux from gaining success over the years; from Microsoft calling it a cancer, to SCO suing it for copyright issues.
The reason more and more companies decided to bet on Linux, support it in various ways, the reason some companies tried to fight Linux ... they are all based in (corporate/business) politics.
What Mozilla is doing is contrary to this. And Firefox is the immediate collateral damage, which makes the whole browser scope more difficult unless a sustainable alternative surfaces. The Chrome/Chromium dominance today is therefore a considerable threat for an open, free and sustainable browser experience.
We have already been down this path before, with Internet Explorer. We don't need to repeat these mistakes. In that sense, the Chrome browser "saved us" back then. Now Chrome/Chromium has become the new threat.
@dazo even if I would buy into your position:
Which browser would be the freedom haven that people form a community around and enjoy the freedom.
Firefox isn't a community project in any serious fashion, nor is chrome.
If you look for that type of dynamic, servo is the best bet we currently have. And it's just not there yet, to be usable as your daily driver.
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this is from last year
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@dazo It's like when Google took "don't be evil" out of their motto. They're self-aware, at least, I guess, maybe that's worth something?
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@dazo This is like when the warrant canary doesn't squawk.
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@EdCates @dazo @graves501 @theorangetheme not everyone has ensuring a balance in html-engines as one of their top priorities when choosing their browser.
Not sure why this is giving you headaches.
Especially in today's world where there only are 2 usable browser engines and both are connected and depending on companies that are not exactly trustworthy.
Firefox and chromium might be open source, but let's be honest, there isn't a community that could maintain them independent from Mozilla and Google.
Would I prefer if there was a Opera 12/Vivaldi like browser with a third engine? Sure! For all the issues it caused for me I loved presto and I hope one day someone builds something of that type around servo.
But also keep in mind: Mozilla killed Gecko as a standalone product, there is a reason why we only have lightly patched Firefox variants and not a single truly different web browser using Gecko nowadays.@EdCates @mxk @theorangetheme @dazo @graves501 oh but
lynx,links2, www-wo-miru, @dillo and Arachne are also very usable browsers, all with their own rendering engines with respective upsides and downsides. I know I switch between them depending on what site renders better where. -
@dazo all true.
But not everyone bases their choice of the browser solely on engine politics.
The feature set of Firefox and Chrome is similarly enough that one could argue for that, but Vivaldi is different.
Any other browser means I would need to give up on my mail client, calendar and so on in my browser. Also I use the sync between desktop and mobile, meaning any browser that's not available for both is out of the picture for me instantly.
If there will be a servo based browser that can do what ever Vivaldi does and that also exists for Android in a usable form, I would be happy to switch. -
@EdCates @dazo @graves501 @theorangetheme not everyone has ensuring a balance in html-engines as one of their top priorities when choosing their browser.
Not sure why this is giving you headaches.
Especially in today's world where there only are 2 usable browser engines and both are connected and depending on companies that are not exactly trustworthy.
Firefox and chromium might be open source, but let's be honest, there isn't a community that could maintain them independent from Mozilla and Google.
Would I prefer if there was a Opera 12/Vivaldi like browser with a third engine? Sure! For all the issues it caused for me I loved presto and I hope one day someone builds something of that type around servo.
But also keep in mind: Mozilla killed Gecko as a standalone product, there is a reason why we only have lightly patched Firefox variants and not a single truly different web browser using Gecko nowadays.@mxk @dazo @graves501 @theorangetheme
What gives me a headache is contributing to turning the WWW into Google's private playground while carrying on like they're the scrappy, unsung rebel's choice.
Nah. It's just Chromium in a nicer suit.
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#Mozilla has lost their ground and is now in a free fall into a sinkhole. I doubt they'll ever get out if this again unless they do a 180-turn within the coming days. Mozilla has lost a lot of trust and credibility over the last couple of years. This accelerates that distrust even more.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/update-on-terms-of-use/
It looks promising, until you hit the last paragraph (my highlight)
In order to make Firefox commercially viable, there are a number of places where we collect and share some data with our partners, including our optional ads on New Tab and providing sponsored suggestions in the search bar. We set all of this out in our privacy notice. Whenever we share data with our partners, we put a lot of work into making sure that the data that we share is stripped of potentially identifying information, or shared only in the aggregate, or is put through our privacy preserving technologies (like OHTTP).
In my book, that's indirectly selling data.
Goodbye, #Firefox.
Update (2026-02-26): So this change happened exactly 1 year ago. I saw the date and missed the year. And since Mozilla is still doing the privacy whitewashing, there is no reason to trust Mozilla more today than a year ago. Leaving Firefox is unavoidable. The current Mozilla leadership does not deserver much trust from the community.
@dazo First, please don't get me wrong: Like anyone else, I don't want my data to be sold, and at the very last by the browser I've been using as my daily driver for anything internet for years.
But the question I can't find a viable answer for is: How can Firefox become a sustainable organization?
Selling our data is a no-go, that's for sure. But how do they make the money required to not only maintain but also invest in Firefox?
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