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After quite some time, I’m finally ready to share this.


Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
  • @julian@fietkau.social in a parallel conversation not about interaction controls, @rimu@piefed.social made the case for batching events, which I'm going to repurpose as an argument against sending additional activities for backward compatibility (unless absolutely necessary.)

    > As a user can do a great number of notable things (posting content, liking content, following others) each minute and there can be thousands of instances to send to, a great many POST requests can be sent in a short amount of time.
    >
    > For example if 5 people cast 20 votes and there are 500 instances, the instance hosting the community containing the posts being voted on must send 5 * 20 * 500 = 50,000 HTTP POSTs.

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  • @julian@fietkau.social @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles this makes me really wish people didn't overload the AS2 vocab so much, and were less afraid of defining their own extensions. you could swing it so that the same activity is an Add, Accept, and ReplyAck. it sucks that we have to pick one instead of using whatever makes sense. (developers: please support multityping and/or duck typing! composability is the only true path to extensibility, and one size never fits all...)

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  • @trwnh There's also this, yeah. GTS interaction controls have already gone through one breaking schema revision from version 0.19 to 0.21 (with 0.20 trying to manage both), and a core goal of the FEP I'm working on is to not break compatibility again.

    Sending out an Add in addition to the Accept(Note) that's already happening should be non-breaking for existing implementations, I'm pretty sure. What's left to decide is whether it's a good idea.

    @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles

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  • @trwnh This is in the context of a FEP draft which prescribes a meaning (including desired side effects) for compliant implementations.

    Hence my fidgeting with the vocabulary. The effects are the goal, the question is how they should be expressed and broadcasted. (Principle of least surprise, potential compatibility with existing implementations that look at the replies collection, concerns around server traffic...)

    @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles

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  • @julian@fietkau.social @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles i think the issue here is that projects are doing things that may or may not get widely adopted, then if the proposals ever change, they have to deal with older software only understanding the old thing they tried. (this is where i would say something about protocol capability negotiation)

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  • @julian@fietkau.social @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles alternatively add the Reply itself, parallel to likes/shares collections. it depends on whether you think the replies collection should always contain a specific type of object, which i don't think is something you can guarantee because publishers can do anything with it. similar to how some publishers include activities in threads and some include notes.

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  • @julian@fietkau.social @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles

    > replies collection is the source of truth for replies curated by the object owner.

    this is fine i think, but the way to do this usually is HTTP GET. you could notify of changes to the replies collection, or you could reify the Reply and then Accept that?

    the Reply has an instrument which is the Note. it has clear side effects to Add the instrument to the object.replies. the side effects can be gated behind Accept/Reject like following currently works.

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  • @julian@fietkau.social @evan @julian@activitypub.space @smallcircles

    > express that the owner of the replied-to object has accepted a reply, i.e. that the reply is added to the post's replies collection and shown under it in the web view

    i get that, but the question is whether you can claim this understanding universally for all peers. as it stands, Accept is very vague wrt this. Accept(Note) meaning "Add to replies collection" might be a thing gts does, but that's their interpretation of Accept, not the definition.

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    Apologies in advance if I misrepresented anybody or missed any crucial bits of information. Jesse Karmani (jesseplusplus@mastodon.social), Ted Thibodeau Jr. (tallted@mastodon.social, and Julian Lam (julian@activitypub.space) in attendance Julian provided an update on adoption of FEP 7888 Both Piefed and Lemmy have adopted 7888, and will begin publishing resolvable context collections in their next release Jesse opened a PR to Mastodon, which received preliminary approval from Gargron@mastodon.social (ed. it was later merged, rolled back, updated, a new PR opened, which was then merged) This PR is the first of two planned pull requests. The first generates the outgoing context (the same as what Lemmy/Piefed have done recently) The seconds handles incoming contexts and backfills Jesse was asked whether it would conflict with existing reply-tree crawling methods, but the two are complementary. She expects additional discussion before the PR is opened. Julian noted that it would be helpful if statistics/analytics were gathered by the Mastodon team to see how conversation contexts and backfill works at scale; admits that existing implementations and testing has been small scale and may not reflect real-world usage. Julian noted that Lemmy's implementation (nutomic@lemmy.ml) does not paginate their resolvable context implementation. All objects are listed in one OrderedCollection Jesse noted that she followed Mastodon's pagination convention for collections. Context inheritance Julian asked for opinions on whether contexts were inherited in existing implementations. Notes that NodeBB inherits parent context, but checks further up the known parent chain for further contexts Julian admits that not everybody can and should do this, is also not sure anymore whether NodeBB actually does this. Julian notes the ideal implementation would be every object referencing their immediate parent, which would lead to the entire collection referring to the same context collection. Jesse: Decodon inherits immediate parent context only Ted: notes that this is a reinvention of inReplyTo Julian and Jesse note that there are marked differences between crawling the reply chain. A short discussion about how netnews and usenet handled reply chains was had. Julian notes that Lemmy will not inherit context. Every object will point back to its own server's context collection. This was a conscious decision by Nutomic as each instance is meant to consider its own representation of remote content as the canonical representation ActivityPub.Space Julian made a short shout-out to a new site called ActivityPub.Space, meant to be a hub for AP development discussions ("A federated space for ActivityPub discussions so that they don’t just get lost in ephemeral replies") A short double-back to NNTP and how they approach "eventual consistency" Ted: “Cloud of NNTP servers are all hosts of articles and replies.” Strictly speaking it’s not a reply tree as replies can be inReplyTo multiple parents