society has moved past the need for unreal engine 5
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Despite having spent my tween years creating maps with and modding for Unreal Engine 1 (and later v2) these days I'm not particularly – err – impressed by the – uh – aesthetics that you get using the defaults of UE5. Yes, of course you can replace most of the render pipeline. But you can often tell at a glance, that a product uses UE5 defaults.
As far as games go, I prefer if they're focused on an artistic approach. I kind of like the look of the Decima engine.
@datenwolf @aeva @lritter unfortunately, humans crave novelty, for the most part
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@datenwolf @aeva @lritter unfortunately, humans crave novelty, for the most part
@halcy @datenwolf @aeva is it really about novelty and not more about conservatism? because UE5 default look is very close to pixar's rendering style.
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@halcy @datenwolf @aeva is it really about novelty and not more about conservatism? because UE5 default look is very close to pixar's rendering style.
@lritter @datenwolf @aeva I mean, for me? I think so, I can definitely get sick of Thing That Is Similar To Previous Thing at speed (which is obv more than looks, but
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@lritter @datenwolf @aeva I mean, for me? I think so, I can definitely get sick of Thing That Is Similar To Previous Thing at speed (which is obv more than looks, but
)@halcy @lritter @datenwolf I have aesthetic gripes with it, but I'm not going to teach you how to spot what makes me unhappy about it, because I do not want to make you unhappy.
I think the bigger issues are things that are generally invisible to the player, but the player gets a diminished experience as a result. The development problems it introduces have been gradually getting better though, but it's not there yet.
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf I have aesthetic gripes with it, but I'm not going to teach you how to spot what makes me unhappy about it, because I do not want to make you unhappy.
I think the bigger issues are things that are generally invisible to the player, but the player gets a diminished experience as a result. The development problems it introduces have been gradually getting better though, but it's not there yet.
@halcy @lritter @datenwolf my personal beef with it though is they ruined rendering for me. In UE4, like virtually all 3D games ever made, if there was a problem, you could fire up a frame debugger and look at the pictures and find the problem by thinking about the pictures and the reading shaders. In UE5 they wrote a bunch of PHDs a blank check and the PHDs took away the pictures.
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf my personal beef with it though is they ruined rendering for me. In UE4, like virtually all 3D games ever made, if there was a problem, you could fire up a frame debugger and look at the pictures and find the problem by thinking about the pictures and the reading shaders. In UE5 they wrote a bunch of PHDs a blank check and the PHDs took away the pictures.
@aeva @lritter @datenwolf I wonder if this lack of debuggability does somewhat add to the (perceived?) problem of a lack of people changing things up from the defaults
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@aeva @lritter @datenwolf I wonder if this lack of debuggability does somewhat add to the (perceived?) problem of a lack of people changing things up from the defaults
@halcy @lritter @datenwolf I think that's just the flattening effect that most AAA rendering techniques have, and a broader and older problem than just UE5. The big killer feature of PBR is not that it is more Based or whatever, it's that every serious production tool speaks it, so you can drop ship a team of hundreds of people in place (because it's "industry standard"), build something stylistically coherent, and then fire all of them.
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf I think that's just the flattening effect that most AAA rendering techniques have, and a broader and older problem than just UE5. The big killer feature of PBR is not that it is more Based or whatever, it's that every serious production tool speaks it, so you can drop ship a team of hundreds of people in place (because it's "industry standard"), build something stylistically coherent, and then fire all of them.
@halcy @lritter @datenwolf like, really think about what that means. artists are really creative people right? and each one spends a lifetime developing their own voice and style, and each one has a unique view of the world around them and something interesting to show you. AAA production pipelines (be it video games or movies or whatever) have to *suppress* that so they can ship something coherent, because it's a necessary practicality at this scale
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf like, really think about what that means. artists are really creative people right? and each one spends a lifetime developing their own voice and style, and each one has a unique view of the world around them and something interesting to show you. AAA production pipelines (be it video games or movies or whatever) have to *suppress* that so they can ship something coherent, because it's a necessary practicality at this scale
@halcy @lritter @datenwolf so we're stuck instead in this loop where the art really has to match the expressive range of what the rendering engine wants to do, and relying on the people developing the engine to deliver advanced features that hopefully look better and can be marketed as a big development.
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf like, really think about what that means. artists are really creative people right? and each one spends a lifetime developing their own voice and style, and each one has a unique view of the world around them and something interesting to show you. AAA production pipelines (be it video games or movies or whatever) have to *suppress* that so they can ship something coherent, because it's a necessary practicality at this scale
@aeva @halcy that's one way to see it, but this sounds like an invitation to be different just out of spite, and that's not motivation enough.
what i prefer to think about are principles and deconstruction: why do we render it the way we do? the first thing that always matters to me is readability: does the player get a good sense of the 3d world they are in?
unable to do much more but scale what it has got, AAA even often violates that, to the detriment of fun.
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf like, really think about what that means. artists are really creative people right? and each one spends a lifetime developing their own voice and style, and each one has a unique view of the world around them and something interesting to show you. AAA production pipelines (be it video games or movies or whatever) have to *suppress* that so they can ship something coherent, because it's a necessary practicality at this scale
@aeva I mean, I Guess, and I know very little about how games are made at scale, but I'd have guessed that there would be someone, or a small amount of people, who are responsible for the vision / vibe / Art Direction, for everyone else to work within, and that that's not a full circle overlap with whoever delivered the engine
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@aeva I mean, I Guess, and I know very little about how games are made at scale, but I'd have guessed that there would be someone, or a small amount of people, who are responsible for the vision / vibe / Art Direction, for everyone else to work within, and that that's not a full circle overlap with whoever delivered the engine
@halcy that is roughly the idea (really it's a hierarchy of people working together, like any other kind of big team). that is possible at this scale because the tech flattens everything out to make it more "art directable" (to borrow a euphemism from the Blender folks), and that means there's less internal training that has to be done to get everyone approximately on the same page, among other production benefits.
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@halcy that is roughly the idea (really it's a hierarchy of people working together, like any other kind of big team). that is possible at this scale because the tech flattens everything out to make it more "art directable" (to borrow a euphemism from the Blender folks), and that means there's less internal training that has to be done to get everyone approximately on the same page, among other production benefits.
@halcy and this flattening isn't necessarily a bad thing. I picked up the term "art directable" from one of the Blender Project Gold videos talking about their amazing digital painting tool. The foundational tech you use or allow in a production has an expressive range where it works best, so, if your expressive range is a procgen digital painting tool like the one Project Gold used, then you can makes something that looks like Project Gold more easily than if you did not have that tool.
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@halcy and this flattening isn't necessarily a bad thing. I picked up the term "art directable" from one of the Blender Project Gold videos talking about their amazing digital painting tool. The foundational tech you use or allow in a production has an expressive range where it works best, so, if your expressive range is a procgen digital painting tool like the one Project Gold used, then you can makes something that looks like Project Gold more easily than if you did not have that tool.
@halcy (personally I think Project Gold looks fantastic)
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@halcy (personally I think Project Gold looks fantastic)
@halcy imagine though trying to make, say, Call of Duty with Project Gold's digital painting tool. The results would probably look amazing tbh, but it wouldn't look like Call of Duty.
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@aeva @halcy that's one way to see it, but this sounds like an invitation to be different just out of spite, and that's not motivation enough.
what i prefer to think about are principles and deconstruction: why do we render it the way we do? the first thing that always matters to me is readability: does the player get a good sense of the 3d world they are in?
unable to do much more but scale what it has got, AAA even often violates that, to the detriment of fun.
@aeva @halcy in fact i think the primary reason to play a typical western AAA game is to experience a setpiece with detailed realism, and then only after that come the mechanics, how you actually spend your time there, and they feel kind of bolted on.
compare this to e.g. super mario 3d world, where being able to parse the scene quickly is crucial to a good experience, and so all visual design flows around this goal of enabling the mechanics.
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@aeva @halcy in fact i think the primary reason to play a typical western AAA game is to experience a setpiece with detailed realism, and then only after that come the mechanics, how you actually spend your time there, and they feel kind of bolted on.
compare this to e.g. super mario 3d world, where being able to parse the scene quickly is crucial to a good experience, and so all visual design flows around this goal of enabling the mechanics.
@lritter @halcy a fun thing about making massive worlds with hundreds of people working together in parallel is you have to favor modular designs that require less synchronization between teams, for the same reason you try to avoid it in parallel programs. I think that's why Nintendo abandoned the classic Zelda structure and the new Zelda's all have modular gameplay systems, for example.
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@lritter @halcy a fun thing about making massive worlds with hundreds of people working together in parallel is you have to favor modular designs that require less synchronization between teams, for the same reason you try to avoid it in parallel programs. I think that's why Nintendo abandoned the classic Zelda structure and the new Zelda's all have modular gameplay systems, for example.
@aeva @halcy yep, absolutely. compare to minecraft, whose larger part was done by just one person (hatsune miku), and so you get this systems driven open world game where all systems overlap interplay and relate to each other in a way only someone who doesn't have to coordinate dozens of teams could set up.
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@halcy @lritter @datenwolf I think that's just the flattening effect that most AAA rendering techniques have, and a broader and older problem than just UE5. The big killer feature of PBR is not that it is more Based or whatever, it's that every serious production tool speaks it, so you can drop ship a team of hundreds of people in place (because it's "industry standard"), build something stylistically coherent, and then fire all of them.
@aeva @halcy @datenwolf missed this one. that's a good point.
Gli ultimi otto messaggi ricevuti dalla Federazione
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Dopo Mercosul l'India.
Bisogna ringraziare Trump per la più grande spinta al multilateralismo che l'Europa ha sperimentato negli ultimi lustri
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i paesi del mercosur non vogliono gli ortaggi della terra dei fuochi
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@LuisCrespo trumputin
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@aeva @halcy @datenwolf missed this one. that's a good point.
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Notte bella, riduci la mia pena.
Tormentami se vuoi, ma fammi forte.Beautiful night, ease my pain.
Torment me if you wish, but make me strongSandro Penna
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Oh ma al povero Matteo non gliene va bene una!
Potrei cominciare a provare dell'umana pietà per lui.
Naaaaaaaaa...
RE: flipboard.com/users/ilPost/sta…
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@stefano yeah, yeah, this is always a bit unpredictable with the iPhone, that’s part of the fun. You will never have the same blur again. Your picture is an NFT, unique !
