I think there's more important things than this, but...

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

I think there's more important things than this, but...

I think it's important to set boundaries, and to be clear and direct concerning them.

But telling someone else how they should do a thing, so that you remain comfortable regardless of whether they are as well is not cool.

For example...

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

I hugely dislike sports talk. I do NOT hate sports. Just the culture in general about them, especially in America.

And so I have said often, that I filter all sports toots. That's my boundary. I want to read the people I follow, but no the sports stuff. That's how I roll.

But I would NOT go to someone tooting non-stop about sports and tell them how to use CWs, or tags.

Maybe, maaaybe, I could ASK them for tags, but not TELL them. Asking a favor is different from an order. Savvy?

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

Same thing with ALT text.

I think I put ALT text in all my images. And hopefully I haven't failed.

And when people post images with no ALT I just don't favorite or boost. But I will probably copy the image and post it myself with ALT.

But I think I don't need to ask them to add ALT text, whether it's that one image, or all their images.

I can just tell them my boundary. No ALT? No boost, no likes.

Do you see where I am going with this?

[tapiocapearl@mastodon.art]

@afreytes I always say a boundary is something I will do in response to a situation, not a restriction on what someone else can do. Just that, if they do it in my presence I will leave. I don't care much what people do when I'm not there.

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@TapiocaPearl Yes, yes.

[picklish@weirder.earth]

@afreytes I don't see, to be honest. Is this a subtoot about people saying something is a boundary for them but it's really a demand on you?

I do think sometimes boundaries can look request shaped. "(implied: if you do X I will remove myself from the situation, therefore) could you not do X?"

based on previous interactions with you and your reluctance to cw uspol it smells adjacent to that, but that's my brain pattern matching, and I don't actually know what you're talking about

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@picklish I feel expecting others behave only in ways we find acceptable is a losing proposition. I think setting boundaries is generally better. The people who care will clearly respect those boundaries. And we can (as of now, but who knows how long that will last) remove ourselves from people who do not.

Point is you can't control everyone's toots, but you can set your boundaries.

Demanding people express themselves in THIS/THAT exact way makes my freedom of expression kinda itchy.

[twistylittlepassages@weirder.earth]

@afreytes @picklish it sounds like maybe you are saying you don't want to be asked to CW things. is that correct?

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@twistylittlepassages @picklish Of course you can ask me! (even better if you are clear about boundaries)

And then I have a choice to CW or not, or to tag or not. But at the end I can choose what to do right? No problem then.

I still feel like expecting others to always behave in ways that strictly do not make us uncomfortable is a losing proposition. Not that I don't engage in that sort of thinking as well.

[twistylittlepassages@weirder.earth]

@afreytes @picklish okay, thanks for clarifying! I guess where I'm getting stuck here is that, unless you're talking to your instance mod/admin, no one here has the power to make you do anything, right? so someone "asking" vs "telling" you is effectively a matter of tone or phrasing.

so one could say that you are "Demanding people express themselves in THIS/THAT exact way," but then saying you don't want others to do that to you. does that make sense?

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@twistylittlepassages @picklish I hardly think I was demanding. Heck, the whole thread is under CW to begin with.

If you think I did, and that's the only thing you got from it... Then I failed miserably at expressing my thinking, and I probably will not succeed at all here.

[twistylittlepassages@weirder.earth]

@afreytes @picklish I was quoting you with that phrasing, sorry. I guess you must have been referring to some interactions I did not witness. I apologize for misunderstanding the situation.

[afreytes@mastodon.gamedev.place]

@twistylittlepassages @picklish No apologies needed, no worries either.

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@afreytes the downside of this approach is the lack of education that allows down or even prevents adoption of good behavior. For example, I don't post many images, but if I had never come across the discussion about the importance of alt text, I would have never learned to use it myself. And when you come across someone who posts images without alt text you never know if it's because of ignorance or lack of care. >

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@afreytes
And on the one hand, if everybody informs them, then the poster gets an avalanche of replies all about adding alt text, which is frustrating and even with the best tone and intentions can be off putting, but OTOH, nobody informing them means they don't learn about the feature (bystander effect). Even copying the image to add alt text yourself can be seen negatively (“stealing the thunder”).

So it's hard to strike the right balance.

>

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@afreytes for alt text, the alt4you hashtag can be used as a way to open the discourse about alt text in a less confrontational way, with the bonus of providing alt text to those that can't easily add it for sensible reasons (time, disabilities); for other aspects there may or may not be comparable approaches, but education still matters.

[kfears@mstdn.games]

@oblomov @afreytes This is a hard balance to find, one that I struggle with, I feel :(

I think boundaries are good, but I also think it can be necessary to point people to the better behavior. It's like, a culture thing - you have to pay the cost of upkeeping the rules as a community, for them to be respected. And I would also like to know when I've forgotten alt text.

But how do you do that in a way that isn't offputting and annoying? How best to tell a stranger on the internet that CWs and alt text are good and expected here? Do you state it matter-of-fact? Point them to related reading? Try to write down the reasons, yourself? What's the tone you should use? I haven't been able to figure this out...

[oblomov@sociale.network]

@KFears @afreytes tone and form does help, but sadly a single asshole making the worst scene about a cultural norm violation can be enough to prevent the receiver from listening to more expressive recommendations. Maybe we need to improve our policing of tone policing? Hard to say.