Google has news on what you will need to do for still being able to sideload apps:
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@ryanprior @grote no, it is not good at all. this is not a solution to anything here
a real solution is to harden the sandbox and vet the permissions. give more and more fine-grained control and inform the user about this. for even better security, have android distributions controlled by different communities, and let distro application packagers vet the permissions for the users, etc. there is a reason the distribution model for linux is so secure
not "you can't install what we don't approve of unless you go through this procedure"
google (and apple, or any other corporation) should have effectively zero control over what i can do nor make it harder for me to gain this control. they should not be able to make me wait or do anything. even bootloader unlocking should not require any verification or other bullshit
the solution is empowering the user and educating them. not making them go through stupid hurdles@lumi I agree with a lot of what you wrote but would differ on some things, are you interested in back-and-forth here?
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@FifiSch @grote I don't really understand that. The instructions are so simple and detailed and the "new OS" is basically exactly the same thing right down to having the same basic startup configuration and etc. The only difference is the Google connections are optional and one can decide for themselves how far they want to go.
It's pretty much just tapping a few things, then copying and pasting two lines or so. Once it's booted you wouldn't tell it apart from stock other than its cleanliness. It's easier than installing Linux on a PC and that's actually a lot easier and less scary than people have been convinced.
I bet if people didn't let Google, Apple, and etc convince them that they are so scared of installing third party options we never would have reached this point.
@nazokiyoubinbou @FifiSch @grote as a person who has had to flash custom Android firmware in the past for work let me say: that is never going to be something that non-technical users do. There might be a market for selling refurbished devices with LineageOS preinstalled to provide an alternative, though.
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@Epic_Null @FifiSch @grote That's the assumption, yes.
Two things.
First, you can just flash again if you for some reason did something stupid like yanking out the cord while it was transferring.
Second, modern Android devices usually use two separate partitions. When you flash it goes to whichever it's not currently using. So if you render it broken and for some reason can't flash again, you can still just boot the first.
Again, people have let themselves be convinced to be scared of things rather than trying them.
@nazokiyoubinbou @FifiSch @grote
you can just flash again
Look that is comforting to someone who knows they can flash their phone. For someone who is doing it for the first time with exactly one device, that's essentially saying "If you find you do not have what it takes to do this, you can just do the thing you found you could not do to fix the mess you made!"
That is NOT going to be comforting to those who need that comfort.
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If the installation fails for some reason, and leaves your phone in an unbootable state, is there some way to recover it?
You can always recover a PC with a bricked operating system by booting from USB. Boot from USB is implemented in ROM, so no matter how horribly wrong things go, there's always a fail-safe.
I was under the impression that the equivalent to that ROM on phones is in writable storage and can be bricked along with the rest of the OS.
I dislike the new ARM Macs for the same reason, by the way: to install an OS from scratch, you need to feed it one over USB from *another* ARM Mac, which must be running macOS if I'm not mistaken.
If I can't recover from a bricked OS with nothing but a storage device containing an OS installer, then it's not a real computer and it doesn't deserve my hard-earned money.
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@nazokiyoubinbou @FifiSch @grote First problem: The user needs to know what an OS even is and that they're using one.
Second problem: The user needs to realize that they can use a different OS.
Third problem: The user needs to know the exact model/codename of their phone, find a suitable OS, unlock bootloader, probably install adb and/or other tools (if there is no WebUSB option), etc.Should I continue?
The user needs to know what an OS even is and that they're using one.
No... Not really. "Install LineageOS" or whatever is all they need to know.
The user needs to realize that they can use a different OS.
That's the second part of the first problem repeated. Again when people say "just install LineageOS" they know they need to install a different thing.
Third problem
Oh we do agree on parts of that and that is a huge part of what I'm saying is NOT ok in this ecosystem. It's not to the extent that you say of course, but it still applies a lot.
I get it. You're terrified of something different and really really don't even want it to be a thing. But that doesn't mean it's ok to be 100% behind letting Google and Apple do this.
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@CalcProgrammer1 @grote The 24h waiting sounds the most reasonable part to me...
@itsFriday @grote How so? It's the one that's getting in your way the most. Want to use this app today? Screw you. Why do we cater to idiots getting scammed more than letting people own the devices we bought with our own money?
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Get off android and apple. Its time
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@nazokiyoubinbou @FifiSch @grote as a person who has had to flash custom Android firmware in the past for work let me say: that is never going to be something that non-technical users do. There might be a market for selling refurbished devices with LineageOS preinstalled to provide an alternative, though.
@tedmielczarek @FifiSch @grote That's a strong declaration without a whole lot of backing...
We'll just have to agree to disagree there.
I'm not saying that they're likely to do it. As I said, people have been systematically convinced not to even look into it. But I don't agree with a blanket statement that no one will ever do it either. Especially if they get pushed hard enough.
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@nazokiyoubinbou @FifiSch @grote
you can just flash again
Look that is comforting to someone who knows they can flash their phone. For someone who is doing it for the first time with exactly one device, that's essentially saying "If you find you do not have what it takes to do this, you can just do the thing you found you could not do to fix the mess you made!"
That is NOT going to be comforting to those who need that comfort.
@Epic_Null @FifiSch @grote What?
I'm saying if you for some reason yanked out the cable or something and broke the initial flash you can press up and press enter then this time not yank out the cable.
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I dislike the new ARM Macs for the same reason, by the way: to install an OS from scratch, you need to feed it one over USB from *another* ARM Mac, which must be running macOS if I'm not mistaken.
If I can't recover from a bricked OS with nothing but a storage device containing an OS installer, then it's not a real computer and it doesn't deserve my hard-earned money.
@argv_minus_one @FifiSch @grote
to install an OS from scratch, you need to feed it one over USB from another ARM Mac, which must be running macOS if I'm not mistaken.
That's... insane...
It kind of makes it pretty clear what Apple is doing there. You must buy at least one other of their devices even to do anything else with your own...
In regards to flashing Android devices, any PC will do and there are ways to do it from non-PC things. I wouldn't suggest it for the average user, but I've even used a USB host connection to another phone with termux to run adb commands, lol. (The point is we have the option of using anything that can run the software. They definitely shouldn't try that one at home...)
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Google has news on what you will need to do for still being able to sideload apps:
* enable developer options
* confirm that you are not tricked
* restart phone and re-authenticate
* wait one day
* confirm with biometrics that you know what you are doing
* decide if you only want unrestricted installs for 1 week or forever
* confirm that you accept the risks
* enjoy the few apps that still have developers motivated to develop for a user-base willing to put up with this@grote
Or switch to a degoogle os. -
Google has news on what you will need to do for still being able to sideload apps:
* enable developer options
* confirm that you are not tricked
* restart phone and re-authenticate
* wait one day
* confirm with biometrics that you know what you are doing
* decide if you only want unrestricted installs for 1 week or forever
* confirm that you accept the risks
* enjoy the few apps that still have developers motivated to develop for a user-base willing to put up with this@grote
One will also need to:
*Summon Satan using only Holy Water
*Sell your first born child"Can someone continue the list? These peasants need to kneel before the Corporation"
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@govinda_hari @faduda @grote As others have noted, it's PIN *or* biometrics (not to save Goog's face, they're being awful here, but biometrics are not required at this point, yet!)
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@itsFriday @grote How so? It's the one that's getting in your way the most. Want to use this app today? Screw you. Why do we cater to idiots getting scammed more than letting people own the devices we bought with our own money?
@CalcProgrammer1 @itsFriday @grote its wrong to assume this is about stopping scams or will do anything to stop scammers-
scammers will.. simply .. just ask you to enter your details into a web application, instead of a 'native' app, and nothing changes
the purpose is control, the purpose is survailence, the purpose is to deny certain people the 'privledge' of making android apps, the purpose is to send armed forces to your house to socially/actually murder you if you make an app they dont approve of
the purpose is not to 'stop scammers' :)
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@itsFriday @grote How so? It's the one that's getting in your way the most. Want to use this app today? Screw you. Why do we cater to idiots getting scammed more than letting people own the devices we bought with our own money?
@CalcProgrammer1 @grote For the scamer scenario, 1 day of patience I see as a workimg precaution. But why do I need to go through hidden steps to get there? Why is there not a question at the very first startup "Would you like to add F-Droid, Aurora, ... and/or the option to install any apk on your phone? Tick the ones you like and it is installed automatically."
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@lumi I agree with a lot of what you wrote but would differ on some things, are you interested in back-and-forth here?
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@oatrapado @grote Europeans might come to the rescue in the coming years with creations like FairPhone and Jolla Phone. Maybe if the donations start flooding in, Pine64 might be convinced to put more effort into the PinePhone.
@Frenezul0_o @grote those chinese/european phones are just obsolete and overprized, pinephone another archeological piece at a high price.
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You're absolutely right. However I think you misinterpreted my initial post. That was to be seen more of the lines of "if life gives you lemons make lemonade" (and kinda ironically).
I just wanted to make readers think about all of this and the implications :)
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@TimWardCam That's not my main concern, but I think there's exceptions for device management solutions. Also they could just register with Google if needed.
@grote @TimWardCam Google has a whole "Managed Google Play" as part of Enterprise Android support: https://support.google.com/work/android/answer/9495634?hl=en
I don't think companies doing such things will be fussed by this at all. A company using Android devices but not using enterprise management would already be in a pretty self-inflicted state of badness.
Edit: https://developer.android.com/developer-verification/guides/faq explicitly says this doesn't affect enterprise apps. -
@CalcProgrammer1 @itsFriday @grote its wrong to assume this is about stopping scams or will do anything to stop scammers-
scammers will.. simply .. just ask you to enter your details into a web application, instead of a 'native' app, and nothing changes
the purpose is control, the purpose is survailence, the purpose is to deny certain people the 'privledge' of making android apps, the purpose is to send armed forces to your house to socially/actually murder you if you make an app they dont approve of
the purpose is not to 'stop scammers' :)
@Li @CalcProgrammer1 @grote Yes, that's why I think the 24h are the only reasonable steps.
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